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Pronounciation-Grammar-Vocabulary | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| glossa.passion Triglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6322 days ago 267 posts - 349 votes  1 sounds Speaks: German*, EnglishC1, Danish Studies: Spanish, Dutch | Message 1 of 16 02 December 2007 at 1:34pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes, I think that would be better! So, here are my thoughts to the citation: I think, the numbers were not meant as definite numbers, but more as an expression of concern. And they are surely not meant as a concept for the amount of time or the proportion of time which one should spend on these three parts. Nevertheless I did a little calculation: How many words has a language? I really don't know, but someone told me once, English has about 200 000 words. So 1 % would be then about 2000 words (let it be a few thousands more, it does really not count in my eyes). How many different words are used actively by an average native speaker? I don't know. How many grammar rules and their exceptions exist for a language? Leave out all the not so often used grammatical constructions. Would that be about 50 %? I can't answer this for I'm not a linguist. But do common grammar books contain them all? Assume, someone is able to apply the usual/most common grammar perfectly right. Combined with 100 % pronounciation mustn't that be an acceptable, if not amazing result for an "average learner"? And the citation says nothing about how to achieve it. It says nothing against the study of grammar or learning vocabulary or using comprehensible input / traditional language courses / whatsoever. For me, the citation is an interesting input to my general pondering about language learning. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7029 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 2 of 16 02 December 2007 at 3:10pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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What you meant to say is that in approaching a new language a learner should strive to achieve 100% mastery of pronunciation, 50% mastery of grammar and 1% mastery of vocabulary. I suspect that few people understood what you meant, in the original post.
So if you had had, in your active vocabulary, the phrase "strive to achieve" and the word "mastery" you would have been better able to get your meaning across. The problems I see with this approach are the following. 1) Pronunciation accuracy and familiarity with grammar will just gradually improve over time, faster for some than for others. To set goals in terms of the degree to which mastery or perfection in pronunciation or grammar will be achieved, serves little purpose. To a large extent these goals are out of your control, so there is no point putting pressure on yourself. 2) A vocabulary of 200,000 or more words is in a way theoretical and meaningless. What matters is the vocabulary needed for your specific purposes. You should strive to achieve as close as possible to 100% mastery of the vocabulary you need for your purposes. You may not achieve it, but it is an easier goal to work towards, and the one which drives the others, as long as the vocabulary is achieved as part of a program of study that is focused on intensive listening and reading. 3) Perfection is not a reasonable goal in language study. Constant improvement and enjoyment are. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| bushwick Tetraglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6245 days ago 407 posts - 443 votes Speaks: German, Croatian*, English, Dutch Studies: French, Japanese | Message 3 of 16 02 December 2007 at 3:13pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
the oxford english dictionary has more then 600 000 entries. :P + thousands of new words are added yearly i read the quote myself today, and it was quite interesting. maybe it's somewhat harsh, telling you to spend so little time on vocab, however, i support it. i think, at the beginning, most of the time should be spent on the phonetic part of the language, listen and imitate (heck, even fake languages, that helped me immensely) it kind of throws me of when i hear someone speaking a language perfectly, but just didnt master pronunciation. sure, one can have a vast vocabulary and speak the language flawlessly without any grammatical mistakes, but the pronunciation is the first thing that makes an impression, whether one likes it or not. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7029 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 4 of 16 02 December 2007 at 3:22pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I could not disagree more. Why fight pronunciation at the beginning when the brain is not even used to the language. Spend most of your time listening and reading, and if you really want to pursue that elusive perfection in pronunciation, do not even attempt it until you have listened to thousands of hours, a lot of it being the repetition of content that you particularly enjoy. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| glossa.passion Triglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6322 days ago 267 posts - 349 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, EnglishC1, Danish Studies: Spanish, Dutch | Message 5 of 16 02 December 2007 at 3:58pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Here is the original sentence in German:
"Ein Linguist hat einmal gesagt, dass man, um eine Fremdsprache sprechen zu können, 100 % der Aussprache beherrschen muss, jedoch schon mit 50 % der Grammatik und 1 % des Vokabulars auskommen kann." It's on page 29 of Assimil's "Vietnamesisch ohne Mühe" (Vietnamese without toil). It stuck in my head like I translated it here in English, sorry for the incorrect translation, Zhuangzi, I'm only an amateur. But why should there be a discrepancy between perfection as a goal and constant improvement/enjoyment? I highly enjoy my language studies, especially when trying to improve my pronounciation in a foreign language! I am open minded for everything concerning foreign languages and learning them. bushwick: ...but the pronunciation is the first thing that makes an impression, whether one likes it or not. That's also my experience. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7029 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 6 of 16 02 December 2007 at 4:09pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I really like the idea that Linguist is used in German here to mean someone skilled at speaking languages. That is unusual. That is how I use the word in English.
To be able to speak a foreign language you do not need to master the pronunciation 100%. It is neither possible nor necessary. And it it will get easier over time. We all know people who are fluent in languages where they do not "master" the pronunciation. I have learners tell me that they do no like to hear themselves speak English (or whatever language) because they do not like the way they sound. So I just say stop listening to yourself. If you can get into the mood of the culture and language you are learning, the pronunciation will come. You have to be willing to leave the comfort of your own language. You have to take chances. You have to pretend. And I recommend not worrying about perfection. This is just my advice and my own experience. But then, to each his/her own. To set perfection as a goal is to create unnecessary pressure, in my view. Edited by Zhuangzi on 02 December 2007 at 4:50pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| glossa.passion Triglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6322 days ago 267 posts - 349 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, EnglishC1, Danish Studies: Spanish, Dutch | Message 7 of 16 02 December 2007 at 5:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
First of all, I started learning Danish 18 weeks ago and alongside I observe myself on my very own process of language acquiring. Every part is so interesting to me. As a result I do not only get the gift of a new language, I learn as much about methods. This citation especially intrigued me, because it felt right to me. There are so many published strategies for learning vocabulary, many grammar books, but material concerning only pronounciation is rather rare. And if available, it's the only "speak after". Learning pronounciation in different ways seems somehow disregarded. During my Danish studies I learned, that when listening over and over to the same text, I could recognize sound differences I did not heard consciously before. Apart from traditional language courses like Assimil, I use comprehensible input as well, "real material" (I read my third crime novel in Danish by now – but I read them before in German and I can really hear the Danish voice in my brain :) Furthermore: months ago I've read here in the forum about using a model for language learning. I recorded a Danish spoken interview from the internet, got a transcription from a translater for it and listened to it over and over again. I did the same with a Danish song. I listen to Danish audiobooks. And as a result I identified for myself the differences in speech between material intended for language learning, audiobooks and real spoken (Interview). By the way, I did some statistics on the interview: 5 minutes "real spoken" Danish were typed 1.044 words, 102 words were unknown to me, 19 words from the so far unknown I could guess from context That means, I knew about 90 % of the words – at the 8. week of my Danish studies. But knowing single words didn't mean, that the sentences were completely understandable to me. I only could understand fragments at that time. I'd say, that I'm now much more aware for the impact of pronounciation. I'll work on it as much as on other parts of a foreign language. Meaning, I'll also find creative and enjoyable ways to improve it. And I think, by the end of the year, I can upload a soundfile in Danish :-) Finally I think I should note, that I'm 47 years old, national economist and working for many years as a freelance management consultant. No foreign language skills required so far. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7029 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 8 of 16 02 December 2007 at 6:13pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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glossa
I love the sound of Danish although I have never attempted to learn it. Did you see the movie "Babette's Feast". It is a feast for the viewer and the listener, in many ways. Good luck in your Danish. When you attempt to imitate Danish, I suggest that you do not worry about how you think you sound, just imitate. After a few months you might try to record and compare, but in the meantime just assume that you are getting it right. By the time you go to compare you will closer to your goal than you suspect. And keep listening to whatever you find enjoyable. At least that is my advice. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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