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ʐ in żona / rzeka contrast? | ||
Tags: Polish | Pronunciation | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6440 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes  Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 1 of 14 08 February 2008 at 8:21am | IP Logged | ||
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I'm attempting to study Polish Phonology via the wikipedia page on Polish Phonology. ż / rz are both indicated as being pronounced ʐ (IPA for a voiced retroflex fricative similar to z).
Is the 'r' forming a digraph with the z to show that it's not the 'z' of dz (IPA /d͡z/) or the z of ź / z(i) (IPA /ʑ/), but rather, the same 'z' of ż -- basically, as a purely orthographic device, with rz and ż being two ways of spelling the same sound? Or is there some sort of 'r' sound to it that I'm not managing to hear correctly? Links to the sound files I'm using: rz and ż. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Kubelek Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland chomikuj.pl/Kuba_wal Joined 6853 days ago 415 posts - 528 votes Speaks: Polish*, EnglishC2, French, Spanish Studies: German | Message 2 of 14 08 February 2008 at 8:56am | IP Logged | ||
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you got it right, there's no difference in pronunciation of these two.
same with: h-ch dź-dzi ci-ć si-ś I wanted to add ni-ń as well but when i thought about it "słońce" and "słonice" would be pronounced differently. So careful with that one Edited by Kubelek on 08 February 2008 at 8:58am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| atamagaii Senior Member Anguilla Joined 6207 days ago 181 posts - 195 votes Speaks: Apache* | Message 3 of 14 08 February 2008 at 8:58am | IP Logged | ||
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rz and ż are the same sound.
They are voiced in rzeka, żona, marzenie, marża, brzeg, grzyb etc, that is between vowels, at the beginning of a word and after a voiced consonant. After a voiceless consonant and at the end of a word they are voiceless and pronounced like sz. krzak, przykry, kurz. The same happens with all voiced consonants. rz can be pronounced seprately r-z only in a few words, eg marznąć - m a r z n ą ć Edited by atamagaii on 08 February 2008 at 8:59am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Kubelek Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland chomikuj.pl/Kuba_wal Joined 6853 days ago 415 posts - 528 votes Speaks: Polish*, EnglishC2, French, Spanish Studies: German | Message 4 of 14 08 February 2008 at 9:03am | IP Logged | ||
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atamagaii please correct me if I'm wrong, I never studied this aspect of our phonology consciously.
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| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6440 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 5 of 14 08 February 2008 at 9:04am | IP Logged | ||
Ok, great, thank you. Ironically enough, I'm working with dz right now - I'd originally thought I was doing it decently, but at this point, I've realized that I need to work more on contrasting the alveolar/retroflex/palatal consonants, and on releasing stops into affricatives, so I'm studying dzwon / dźwięk / dżem for the d + 3 different 'z' sounds contrast, along with żona / dżem for whether or not to start the sound with a stop before the fricative. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| atamagaii Senior Member Anguilla Joined 6207 days ago 181 posts - 195 votes Speaks: Apache* | Message 6 of 14 08 February 2008 at 9:14am | IP Logged | ||
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dz, dż, dź are three different sounds, to an English speaker they sound the same, like j in John.
In dżonka, dżudo, dżungla dż is one sound, in dżem, they are two sounds: d-żem (like drz in drzewo), though plenty of Poles pronounce it like one sound, similar to English jam. Edited by atamagaii on 08 February 2008 at 9:15am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| atamagaii Senior Member Anguilla Joined 6207 days ago 181 posts - 195 votes Speaks: Apache* | Message 7 of 14 08 February 2008 at 9:22am | IP Logged | ||
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Listen to plenty of texts and try to repeat only after you've been able to hear all the sounds.
Studying phonetics without listening to texts is a waste of time. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6440 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 8 of 14 08 February 2008 at 9:26am | IP Logged | ||
All three sound distinct to me. However, I can't -consistently- produce them one after another (if I'm just repeating one sound file, it's much easier), and I'm not entirely confident that I can consistently differentiate them at a natural speed while listening (I'm checking now). The 'dzem' on wikipedia sounds like only one sound to me (while Dzwon sounds like two, and Dzwiek sounds like a stop releasing into an affricative, which is something I'm sufficiently unused to that I can't really label it one sound or two). 1 person has voted this message useful |
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