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Northern European Learning Methods? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6915 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes  Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 17 of 32 28 March 2008 at 3:44pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I agree with raeve and badger2. When I have met people from Germany, Spain and France my experience has been that they usually have a very thick accent and that they usually comment on mine (suggestions: American, Irish or Canadian, depending on where I've been at the moment).
In Sweden (and other countries of course) we actually get to hear (a variety of) spoken English, as opposed to what I believe is the case in the abovementioned countries (considering the dubbing and all that). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Leopejo Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6115 days ago 675 posts - 724 votes Speaks: Italian*, Finnish*, English Studies: French, Russian | Message 18 of 32 28 March 2008 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Dubbing, and the importance of the national language, are the two most important factors in my opinion. And it is a kind of vicious circle: no exposure to it -> less knowledge of it -> less desire or possibility to learn it -> less exposure to it... It is a fact that in Italy most people learn English in school only. And some don't learn it at all: at least some years ago, a minority had to learn French instead. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Eriol Diglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 6872 days ago 118 posts - 130 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Portuguese | Message 19 of 32 28 March 2008 at 4:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Since you implicitly asked I tried to check the total number of English instruction hours in Swedish schools. Compulsory school, grade 1-9: 480 hours that are guaranteed for all pupils. I started English in grade 3, but I'm not sure what grade they start in nowadays. High school, grade 10-12: 100-300 hours. English is divided into three courses of 100 hours each. Normally students on more practical programs only do one course, students on theoretical programs do two and only students who choose to or are on special "international" programs do all three. I'm not sure if all these hours are guaranteed, but the numbers should be approximately right. So in total we are looking at hours similar to what an FSI-course in English for Swedish-speakers would be if it existed... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| JD Diglot Newbie Sweden Joined 6172 days ago 36 posts - 37 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Finnish, French | Message 20 of 32 28 March 2008 at 6:00pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Yes, the facts that we don't dub our television shows and that we start out with English early are the most important factors. We hear it all the time and it is very easy to get at least a passive knowledge of the language.
From my experience, most peoples grammar and vocabulary are very good over here, but I'm not so sure about the accent. While Germans and Spaniards are often mentioned in these debates, and while they do have a thick accent at times, that is definitely also the case with Swedes. I hear many people speaking with a thick "sing-song" Swedish accent (Sven-Göran Eriksson, anyone?) but I don't hear it commented very much. Is there any particular reason behind that? One theory I could think about myself is perhaps that the Swedish/Norwegian accent is quite clear and comprehensible, so it doesn't "bother" the other speaker that much, even though it's strong. Input from native speakers is welcomed! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6949 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 21 of 32 28 March 2008 at 6:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Ra and Eriol, thanks for sharing the Norwegian and Swedish data on the teaching hours for English. I suspect that while "the influence of anglophone culture (cinema, TV, videogames and music primarily)" is indeed very important in this case, one may not know whether it is "the most important factor". Perhaps it is, but schooling may still be very important. If one could conduct experiments, one would want to have a society with the same amount of exposure to English-speaking media, but no school instruction in English, and another one with significant school instruction in English, but little access to the English-speaking media. What would the results be in these two cases? Well, in some sense, I was the subject of an experiment of the second kind myself, and the results were reasonable. I am old enough to have studied English in the former Soviet Union. Schooling there was 10 grades, with foreign language normally taught in 5th through 10th grades, at something like 2 in-class hours per week. There were also magnet schools for English, where English classes were from 2nd through 10th grades, with an additional weekly lesson. I'll guesstimate their weekly hours of English instruction at 3 hours per week. Access to Western media was extremely limited - all this was before the VHS and DVD eras. As far as I know, both school systems used more or less the same dull and unimaginative language-learning methodology, the only real difference in magnet schools was starting earlier and a little over two times as many total hours of instruction by the time one graduated. It made a huge difference - people from regular schools pretty much didn't know the language they had studied, those from magnet schools knew it much better. A famous Hungarian polyglot Kato Lomb discussed a similar difference she had observed between regular and magnet schools in Hungary in the 1973 edition of her book on language learning, and her guess was the same, that some of it had to do with the total number of hours of instruction. Essentially, regular school provide, roughly speaking, 300 hours of instruction instead of the needed 600 - in self-study the difference in the results would be self-evident, and school-based learning seems to be no exception. The Scandinavian educational systems do seem to provide the needed number of hours, so this may also play an important role, in addition to the availability of the English-language media. Edited by frenkeld on 30 March 2008 at 10:29pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6915 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 22 of 32 28 March 2008 at 6:32pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Very true, I wouldn't say that most Swedes (or even a decent part) have a good accent, only that they (we?) do exist. :) Basically every official person (politician, singer et.c.) have a clear Swedish accent, and it's a strange feeling hearing people of my own age speaking English like the character Stig Helmer Olsson from the "Sällskapsresan" movies (it's the fourth part that takes place in Scotland right?).
I've never thought of what you say about the Swedish/Norwegian accent (i.e. being somewhat "neutral", perhaps not bothering people). For one, Scandinavians usually get the sounds right. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| JD Diglot Newbie Sweden Joined 6172 days ago 36 posts - 37 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Finnish, French | Message 23 of 32 28 March 2008 at 7:38pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yeah, that was sort of what I was thinking of as well. We get the sounds right and pronounce the words correctly, but still with a strong Swedish accent IMO. About they being "neutral"; it's difficult to tell for me being a native speaker since our accent is the one that seems "clear" and "natural" to me. But is it just what we are used to or does it exist a more objective "clearness" when it comes to languages?
Yes, you're thinking of the fourth one, "Den ofrivillige golfaren" ("It's pronounced "Steeg Helmer"...") ;). Edited by JD on 28 March 2008 at 7:38pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Earle Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6321 days ago 276 posts - 276 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Norwegian, Spanish | Message 24 of 32 28 March 2008 at 8:21pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I think that it's accurate that most American English speakers do not find the Svensk/Norsk accent bothersome. On the contrary, it's quite charming. It's been fodder for comedians over here for generations. It still is on Garrison Keillor's "Prairie Home Companion." I find that, when speaking Norwegian, I have to think about it to reproduce it. I usually abandon it after a while and just speak normally, for me as an English/German speaker. Then, I'm told that I'm speaking Norwegian with a Danish accent. :) 1 person has voted this message useful |
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