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parasitius
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5997 days ago
220 posts - 323 votes 
Speaks: English*, Mandarin
Studies: Cantonese, Polish, Spanish, French
| Message 49 of 129 02 February 2009 at 8:54am | IP Logged |
shapd wrote:
If you Google Paul Sulzberger you will find a link to a Radio New
Zealand interview where he discusses his research. It will probably only be available
for a few days. |
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Let's give the fine folk a direct link, friend.
radio interview - scroll down to "University research says languages can be easier to learn"
If anyone knows how to archive it (for possible distant future readers of this thread), please let me know. I couldn't save it with my best downloading tool which usually can grab everything: Orbit.
Edited by parasitius on 02 February 2009 at 9:08am
1 person has voted this message useful
| Volte
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Switzerland
Joined 6438 days ago
4474 posts - 6726 votes
Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian
Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese
| Message 50 of 129 02 February 2009 at 9:10am | IP Logged |
It's very easy to archive it:
mplayer -dumpstream -dumpfile ckpt-20090127-1820-University_research_shows_languages_can_b e_easier_to_learn-m048.asx -playlist http://www.radionz.co.nz/__data/assets/audio_item/0010/1847485/ ckpt-20090127-1820-University_research_shows_languages_can_b e_easier_to_learn-m048.asx
If you don't have mplayer, a more direct link to the file may help you:
mms://202.7.7.90/rnz/ckpt/ckpt-20090127-1820-University_rese arch_shows_languages_can_be_easier_to_learn-048.mp3 . As usual with this forum, remove any inserted spaces...
Enjoy.
1 person has voted this message useful
| slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 6674 days ago
1296 posts - 1781 votes
4 sounds
Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English
| Message 52 of 129 02 February 2009 at 5:41pm | IP Logged |
I remember the thread "Best Method or more Time". I sent you this link:
What Does it Take to Acquire Language?
Stephen D Krashen
Published in ESL Magazine, 2000. 3(3): 22-23.
http://www.sdkrashen.com/articles/what_does_it_take/index.ht ml
Quote:
The case is quite consistent with current theory (e.g., Krashen, 1985; 1999), and shows that "acquisition" alone can lead to impressive levels of competence in a second language. Armando had the necessary ingredients: comprehensible input although it was not comprehensible at first and a low "affective filter." The most striking aspect of this case, in my opinion, is the support it provides for the notion of club membership, the idea that we "talk like the people we perceive ourselves to be." (Smith, 1988, p. 4; see also Beebe, 1985). Armando, it can be hypothesized, made the extraordinary progress he did because he had comprehensible input and because he joined the club of speakers who used the language. (Note that the "club" in this case was a circle of friends, not a national or ethnic group; Armando has not converted to Judaism.)
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Funnily enough Dr. Krashen recognizes that Armando's input was INcomprehensible at first and give us a good anecdotal evidence.
It's incomprehensible at first, but as long as you continue
interacting with the target language (usage), it will become comprehensible.
1 person has voted this message useful
| reineke
Senior Member
United States
https://learnalangua
Joined 6446 days ago
851 posts - 1008 votes
Studies: German
| Message 53 of 129 02 February 2009 at 10:54pm | IP Logged |
slucido wrote:
I remember the thread "Best Method or more Time". I sent you this link:
What Does it Take to Acquire Language?
Stephen D Krashen
Published in ESL Magazine, 2000. 3(3): 22-23.
http://www.sdkrashen.com/articles/what_does_it_take/index.ht ml
Quote:
The case is quite consistent with current theory (e.g., Krashen, 1985; 1999), and shows that "acquisition" alone can lead to impressive levels of competence in a second language. Armando had the necessary ingredients: comprehensible input although it was not comprehensible at first and a low "affective filter." The most striking aspect of this case, in my opinion, is the support it provides for the notion of club membership, the idea that we "talk like the people we perceive ourselves to be." (Smith, 1988, p. 4; see also Beebe, 1985). Armando, it can be hypothesized, made the extraordinary progress he did because he had comprehensible input and because he joined the club of speakers who used the language. (Note that the "club" in this case was a circle of friends, not a national or ethnic group; Armando has not converted to Judaism.)
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Funnily enough Dr. Krashen recognizes that Armando's input was INcomprehensible at first and give us a good anecdotal evidence.
It's incomprehensible at first, but as long as you continue
interacting with the target language (usage), it will become comprehensible.
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Krashen states that Armando managed to learn the language despite incomprehensible input and thanks to small but increasing doses of comprehensible input.
"With a "natural approach" language class Armando would have had comprehensible input right away and would have moved through the beginning stages more quickly..."
Elsewhere Krashen claims that incomprehensible input is useless "noise".
1 person has voted this message useful
| slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 6674 days ago
1296 posts - 1781 votes
4 sounds
Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English
| Message 54 of 129 03 February 2009 at 1:54am | IP Logged |
reineke wrote:
slucido wrote:
I remember the thread "Best Method or more Time". I sent you this link:
What Does it Take to Acquire Language?
Stephen D Krashen
Published in ESL Magazine, 2000. 3(3): 22-23.
http://www.sdkrashen.com/articles/what_does_it_take/index.ht ml
Quote:
The case is quite consistent with current theory (e.g., Krashen, 1985; 1999), and shows that "acquisition" alone can lead to impressive levels of competence in a second language. Armando had the necessary ingredients: comprehensible input although it was not comprehensible at first and a low "affective filter." The most striking aspect of this case, in my opinion, is the support it provides for the notion of club membership, the idea that we "talk like the people we perceive ourselves to be." (Smith, 1988, p. 4; see also Beebe, 1985). Armando, it can be hypothesized, made the extraordinary progress he did because he had comprehensible input and because he joined the club of speakers who used the language. (Note that the "club" in this case was a circle of friends, not a national or ethnic group; Armando has not converted to Judaism.)
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Funnily enough Dr. Krashen recognizes that Armando's input was INcomprehensible at first and give us a good anecdotal evidence.
It's incomprehensible at first, but as long as you continue
interacting with the target language (usage), it will become comprehensible.
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Krashen states that Armando managed to learn the language despite incomprehensible input and thanks to small but increasing doses of comprehensible input.
"With a "natural approach" language class Armando would have had comprehensible input right away and would have moved through the beginning stages more quickly..."
Elsewhere Krashen claims that incomprehensible input is useless "noise".
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Yes, Krashen claims that incomprehensible input is useless "noise", but here he give us an anecdotal example of the opposite. If it was really "noise", Armando's progress would have been zero in this early stages. Therefore, it was NO noise. That's the point.
I know it's difficult for you to assume I was right...:O))))
Read again.
1 person has voted this message useful
| TerryW
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6356 days ago
370 posts - 783 votes
Speaks: English*
| Message 55 of 129 03 February 2009 at 2:58am | IP Logged |
Can somebody please explain how he is proving (or has proven) his hypothesis?
You sure can't prove that you learn faster listening to incomprehensible stuff "on the side" using a couple people, there's no control to measure against. I guess a study with 2 random groups would work, if the "n" is statistically significant, but did he do this?
Sorry if this was already explained here, but there are lots of links and quotes and references to excretory matter in this thread, and I haven't seen anything about the research itself.
Edited by TerryW on 03 February 2009 at 3:39am
1 person has voted this message useful
| Raчraч Ŋuɲa
Triglot
Senior Member
New Zealand
Joined 5817 days ago
154 posts - 233 votes
Speaks: Bikol languages*, Tagalog, EnglishC1
Studies: Spanish, Russian, Japanese
| Message 56 of 129 03 February 2009 at 4:07am | IP Logged |
slucido wrote:
Yes, Krashen claims that incomprehensible input is useless "noise", but here he give us an anecdotal example of the opposite. If it was really "noise", Armando's progress would have been zero in this early stages. Therefore, it was NO noise. That's the point.
Read again.
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I read it and he said:
Stephen Krashen wrote:
"Silverstein provides some description of how Armando did it: "He learned by observing and listening to co-workers and friends," through interaction and conversation, occasionally asking for the meanings of unknown words.
Armando, it can be hypothesized, made the extraordinary progress he did because he had comprehensible input and because he joined the club of speakers who used the language.... Of course, Hebrew was not comprehensible for him right away. His great accomplishment was due to patience, being willing to acquire slowly and gradually with a long silent period (or period of reduced output). With a "natural approach" language class Armando would have had comprehensible input right away and would moved through the beginning stages more quickly, and real conversational Hebrew would have been comprehensible earlier. I predict that a traditional class focusing on grammar would not have had this effect.
Armando's case also shows us that one can do quite well in second language acquisition without living in the country in which the language is spoken and without formal instruction. The crucial variables appear to be comprehensible input and having a good relationship with speakers of the language. "
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He said comprehensible input is one of the crucial variables in second language acquisition if one doesn't live in the place it is spoken and if without formal training. And if he started with comprehensible input right away, he would have had progressed faster. He has not credited the incomprehensible input with anything, but actually alluded to it for the delay in Armando's progress, so he is not "giving an anecdotal example of the opposite" of the "incomprehensible input is useless noise".
Armando's progress would have been zero with the incomprehensible input, and any progress he had will be attributable to "small but increasing doses of comprehensible input", as reineke mentioned.
Edited by Raчraч Ŋuɲa on 03 February 2009 at 4:38am
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