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Revolutionary approach to learning langua | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6674 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 57 of 129 03 February 2009 at 7:10am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
Ho do you know? How did they know? Are you sure?
How do you know there was a delay or the opposite? He is giving us an unexpected example.
It seems the logic of this hypothesis is: -If you learn a unknown language from scratch in a isolated island, you are learning it through comprehensible input. -If you learn a unknown language from scratch in a unfriendly prison, you are learning it through comprehensible input. So the "comprehensible input" is useless: it explains everything. If the "Comprehensible input" hypothesis explains everything, it entails it explains nothing. It's not testable = superstition. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6438 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 58 of 129 03 February 2009 at 7:29am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
You won't accept anecdotes, I'm sure, but as I've pointed out before, my Thai remains essentially at 0 despite hundreds of hours of incomprehensible input (more than I've had for Japanese, but more of the Japanese was comprehensible - my Japanese is much stronger than my Thai), and my Polish, the only one of the three where I've had dozens of focused hours of comprehensible input, is much stronger still. I don't believe it's reasonable to doubt that one learns faster from comprehensible than incomprehensible input; I'll let you do your own literature search and studies if you want to formalize this.
"You learn faster through comprehensible input" is perfectly well testable. Get two groups with N people each (choose N to be statistically significant to the extent you want); give both of them audiobooks in some target language T; have it be something far from any language any of them currently speak, such as Vietnamese for English speakers, to minimize the original comprehensibility of the input. Give group A parallel texts with a language they know already, and group B transcripts without translations. Posting true things which are irrelevant and claiming they support your point is not impressing, sluicido. Claiming that comprehensible input is unfalsifiable and theories involving it make no measurable predictions is nonsense. "You learn from comprehensible input", as you said, does not imply special cases based on whether you're on a desert island; that says NOTHING about whether it is testable. By the same logic, you may as well say "8 is a number. 2 + 6 = 8. 1 + 7 = 8. Therefore 8 is useless and explains everything. Therefore, everything involving it is superstition!!!!" Just because you can find multiple irrelevant parameters and specify them (while leaving other end results out entirely, to boot) does not say anything about a theory. I'm sure I shall, yet again, regret attempting to speak to you, but against my better judgment, I am still posting the above. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6674 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 59 of 129 03 February 2009 at 9:45am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
It doesn't apply here, because you haven't interacted with Thai. Interaction is the keyword and not comprehensible input.
What is comprehensible input? If you learn using M. Thomas, you are learning from comprehensible input. If you learn using Assimil, you are learning from comprehensible input. If you learn using Pimsleur or FSI, you are learning from comprehensible input. And If you learn like Armando, without any special method and from scratch, you are learning from comprehensible input. And If you learn from scratch in a prison, you are learning from comprehensible input. So this comprehensible input thing is so ambiguous that can explain everything, therefore it explains nothing. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| reineke Senior Member United States https://learnalangua Joined 6446 days ago 851 posts - 1008 votes Studies: German | Message 60 of 129 03 February 2009 at 9:47am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
Slucido, I knew how this thread was going to develop even before checking the responses. I don't credit myself with any considerable foresight. You wanna be as precise as a surgeon's knife yet you continue to act as a madman with a chainsaw. Khatzumoto has recently blogged about the "incomprehensible input", he is continuing with his Krashen mantra and yet he cannot be bothered to check what Krashen has to say about incomprehensible input. I have personally learned one language and partially learned another from "incomprehensible input" without the aid of grammar books or dictionaries. It IS possible. I am not sure I would recommend listening to "incomprehensible input" as the main approach to anyone trying to break into new and especially unrelated languages. I would not recommend it to anyone with practical goals. The most successful language learners, especially those who learn a lot of languages "fast" use grammar books, dictionaries and works of literature. Cervantes is great for this purpose, contrary to what you claimed before. "Incomprehensible input" is a great complementary approach. You should listen and read (if possible) from the beginning, especially when you don't feel like doing anything else. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6674 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 61 of 129 03 February 2009 at 9:55am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
You have some problems here. 1-First and foremost, you need to define what on is "comprehensible input". 2-You are not measuring the outcome: interaction level with the language.
What is comprehensible input and how can we measure that?
:o) 8 is the outcome and not the explanation. This outcome can be achieved with several concrete steps. Comprehensible input= ambiguity.
:0) I can understand you. The problem is you think I am right and you can stand it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6438 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 62 of 129 03 February 2009 at 10:07am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
1) If you would like to argue that having a bilingual text does not make the input more comprehensible, feel free to argue it with a wall. 2) I accidentally left that out of the post. That paragraph should end with "... and test both groups (with conversational ability, multiple choice comprehension tests, etc) regularly - say, after every 10 hours of input, for the first 100 hours."
Comprehensible input = input you understand. Incomprehensible input = input you do not understand. If you cannot tell whether or not you understand something, it explains a lot about your posts, but it's beyond me to try to explain the difference to you.
I believe you mean "I can't stand it". And no - while I can't stand talking to you (for a number of reasons, which I shall elide), thinking you are correct is not among them. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6674 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 64 of 129 03 February 2009 at 10:45am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
Ok, Ok , I am Krashen... 1 person has voted this message useful |
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