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Proficiency Tests | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Immersion, Schools & Certificates |  | |
| hypersport Senior Member United States Joined 5887 days ago 216 posts - 307 votes  Studies: Spanish | Message 25 of 33 08 March 2009 at 6:28pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Well said Volte.
I know several Mexicans here in Idaho who speak Spanish fluently (obviously) and I would be willing to bet that they couldn't pass a Spanish proficiency test as they can't spell correctly or even differentiate between a verb and it's reflexive sibling. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Deniz Bilingual Heptaglot Groupie Czech RepublicRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6825 days ago 94 posts - 97 votes Speaks: Czech*, Slovak*, EnglishC2, German, Italian, Spanish, FrenchB2 Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Portuguese, Indonesian, Persian | Message 26 of 33 08 March 2009 at 10:20pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I must disagree with Volte´s point. It is with no doubt true, that SOME exams seem to be "crammable", ie. it may be enough to learn sentences for essays and some grammar patterns and one can get by with that. On the other hand, all the exams I have an experience with-all of them ALTE-DELF/DALF, Cambridge exams ( I have taken these), ZOP, CELI and DELE (I prepare for these) are absolutely not passable without a vast knowledge of the respective languages and I can hardly immagine someone succeeding them without a very thorough command of the language.
Then, as was mentioned in one of the posts, it is a little questionable for me, whether taking exams below B2 has any real value other than self-motivation and progress tracking. To Hypersport: Are you sure they would be able to cope with University level instruction in Spanish as well? I mean it is a big difference whether you talk everyday problems and joys or you investigate subtle nuances of the Spanish literature. Edited by Deniz on 08 March 2009 at 10:21pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Luai_lashire Diglot Senior Member United States luai-lashire.deviant Joined 5834 days ago 384 posts - 560 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto Studies: Japanese, French | Message 27 of 33 09 March 2009 at 12:09am | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm a little surprised this hasn't been posted yet: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/git-up-git-up-
git-down-jlpt-is-the-joke-in-yo-town-why-i-hate-the-jlpt-and -why-its-a-waste-of-your-time-and- money I don't agree with everything Khatzumoto says- for example, I do think tests like the JLPT can be good motivators and measures of progress for those of us not actually living in the country, etc. However, it's been shown again and again that standardized testing of anything- any subject at all- does not actually test anything but your ability to take tests. They are useful only for bureaucratic purposes. And according to Khatzumoto, the JLPT at least isn't even useful for that- he claims that when one is being hired for a job, one is pretty much never actually expected to present test scores to prove your fluency, and he does a pretty good job of explaining why that is the case. I have to agree with others saying many native speakers probably couldn't pass the proficiency exams. I'm in the US and going to be taking the SAT tests for college very soon, and I've been looking at prep books- the vocabulary that we are going to be tested on is all a breeze for me, but I guarantee you that no one ever uses many of these words in speech. Furthermore, the definitions given for many of them are confusing or actively incorrect. And this is a test designed for native speakers of English! No proficiency test is going to ask you what "Ain't" or "Y'all"means, and yet, if you don't know what it means you won't be able to understand a lot of spoken English. Finally, some people have been talking about reading literature. If that's one of the goals for you, then yes, you absolutely shouldn't consider yourself proficient until after you can read difficult literature. But the fact of the matter is many native speakers- including literate ones- can't understand literature from their own language, and they don't need to. If your goals for your target language don't include literature, then it doesn't matter whether you can or can't read it. For many people, the goal is simply to be able to converse like a native, and literacy doesn't matter in that case. So when considering what you or someone else has achieved, the goals of the learner MUST be considered. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6017 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 28 of 33 09 March 2009 at 12:31am | IP Logged | |||||
When you say you will take someone "more seriously" it really does sound like you're not taking me seriously. The thing to remember is that you are taking people more seriously on qualifications that they *say* they have -- how is a claim of "I passed XYZ" any easier to take at face value than "Spanish people keep mistaking me for a Spanish person"? Incidentally, I've coached kids studying for their FCE, so I have had the opportunity to study critically the content and style of proficiency testing, and there is still a lot of language tested for in the Cambridge exams that simply does not match English as it is spoken today. Even setting that aside, the techniques used to teach and cram exam prep (we used the official Cambridge study materials) do not, in my experience, lead to an improved proficiency. Spending time learning how to pass the exam means time lost to learning the language. Incidentally, I haven't put any of the exams I have sat in my profile because I don't have any love of "bragging rights". As I said, all my qualifications were obtained for career purposes and this ain't no careers website, so I don't need no CV in my profile. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6445 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 29 of 33 09 March 2009 at 12:31am | IP Logged | |||||
You make some valid points, but I don't think proficiency tests are uniformly as useless as you and Khatzumoto claim. Flawed? Absolutely. Gameable/crammable? All too often. Useless? I'd be hesitant to say so.
The goals of the learner must be considered, but your average native speaker of any major language has done some reading. I can't consider literacy irrelevant if your goal is to 'converse like a native', as opposed to 'mainly get by conversationally'. I'd consider trying to do this without being literate to be a serious handicap in any language which is customarily also written. There's a huge difference between saying "I have no interest in reading the classical literature of this language, just as most of its native speakers don't" and "I'm not going to be literate - no newspapers, street signs, popular novels, or magazines for me!" 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| hypersport Senior Member United States Joined 5887 days ago 216 posts - 307 votes Studies: Spanish | Message 30 of 33 09 March 2009 at 12:50am | IP Logged | |||||
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Deniz: I think you misread my post. I said I would bet that they couldn't pass a proficiency test in their own language (Spanish).
Point being as many have said here already that the tests are very limited in their usefulness. For some purposes, they are essential, but for the shear claim that a person is fluent in a language, obviously not. The word fluent is loaded anyway, and has many different interpretations. Each and every one of us knows where we stand when it comes to speaking a learned language with native speakers. Whether we can fit in with a group and discuss current events, politics, a movie, or life in general and throw stuff off the cuff and get a laugh, be a smart a$$ amongst friends, etc. There's no reason to advertise it or brag about it, we just enjoy it. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sennin Senior Member Bulgaria Joined 6040 days ago 1457 posts - 1759 votes 5 sounds | Message 31 of 33 09 March 2009 at 2:27am | IP Logged | |||||
At least that's not the case with Cambridge exams. The score drops every time you take it, so people just quit after the 3rd failed attempt :Pp. Edited by Sennin on 09 March 2009 at 3:08pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Deniz Bilingual Heptaglot Groupie Czech RepublicRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6825 days ago 94 posts - 97 votes Speaks: Czech*, Slovak*, EnglishC2, German, Italian, Spanish, FrenchB2 Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Portuguese, Indonesian, Persian | Message 32 of 33 09 March 2009 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | |||||
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to hypersport: You prove your language capacity for studying a university programme in the respective language by passing C2 level examination (ie . mastery). I did not misread your point, but I wanted to point out, that there may be a long way between everyday conversations and higher education.
to Luai_lashire: C2 examinations state, that the person, who passes them is on a level comparable to an EDUCATED native speaker. "Educated native speaker" is a relatively vague term, but I understand it as a person, who has finished at least a high school ( grammar school, gymnasium) and such a person should have read some dozens of books IMHO. I can barely immagine myself speaking my mother language without reading extensively in it- speaking would surely become duller and more shallow. I regard reading authentic materials and books as absolutely essential for learning foreign languages. You also pointed out, that no tests would ask you the slang and heavy colloquialisms- this is very understandable, as these vary profoundly from region to region and you, as an American, could easily fail such tasks for let s say British English. The way "hard" words are put up in lists such as for SAT seems rather sad as the advanced vocabulary should be learned in context and- in the ideal world- evenly during the high-school years. You will obviously not use these words in the everyday conversation, which on the other hand does not make them at all redundant. They allow for a bigger variety and subtle shades of a language. You have most probably read George Orwell´s 1984, where the language is limited to the extent, where nothing unacceptable can be said. The rich vocabulary is thus a part of our freedom, so a renunciation of it would be a very false idea. Edited by Deniz on 09 March 2009 at 2:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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