Proficiency Tests (Immersion, Schools & Certificates) Language Learning Forum

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Language Learning Forum : Immersion, Schools & Certificates

33 messages over 5 pages: 1 2 3 4 5

Luai_lashire
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
luai-lashire.deviant
Joined 5834 days ago
384 posts - 560 votes

Speaks: English*, Esperanto
Studies: Japanese, French

Message 33 of 33

09 March 2009 at 5:38pm | IP Logged

Deniz wrote:

to hypersport: You prove your language capacity for studying a university programme in the
respective language by passing C2 level examination (ie . mastery). I did not misread your point, but I wanted to
point out, that there may be a long way between everyday conversations and higher education.

to Luai_lashire: C2 examinations state, that the person, who passes them is on a level comparable to an
EDUCATED native speaker. "Educated native speaker" is a relatively vague term, but I understand it as a person,
who has finished at least a high school ( grammar school, gymnasium) and such a person should have read
some dozens of books IMHO. I can barely immagine myself speaking my mother language without reading
extensively in it- speaking would surely become duller and more shallow. I regard reading authentic materials
and books as absolutely essential for learning foreign languages. You also pointed out, that no tests would ask
you the slang and heavy colloquialisms- this is very understandable, as these vary profoundly from region to
region and you, as an American, could easily fail such tasks for let s say British English. The way "hard" words are
put up in lists such as for SAT seems rather sad as the advanced vocabulary should be learned in context and-
in the ideal world- evenly during the high-school years. You will obviously not use these words in the everyday
conversation, which on the other hand does not make them at all redundant. They allow for a bigger variety and
subtle shades of a language. You have most probably read George Orwell´s 1984, where the language is limited
to the extent, where nothing unacceptable can be said. The rich vocabulary is thus a part of our freedom, so a
renunciation of it would be a very false idea.

Actually I have not read 1984 so I don't know what you're talking about (I go to a school that allows us to pick
and choose what we're interested in, so I've taken things like Shakespeare and Asian Literature and Creative
Writing, and somehow missed out on 1984). However, if you re-read my post, you will see I never said anywhere
that we shouldn't use as many words, obscure or not, as we please. You're right that a rich vocabulary is a
wonderful thing; I'm not questioning that. Nor am I questioning that proficiency tests are designed to test
whether or not you sound like an EDUCATED native. However, many people here have been claiming that you
must not be capable of speaking "like a native" (note the omission of the word "educated") if you haven't passed
the test. So my point was that you don't have to be able to speak like an educated native in order to speak like a
native, because the fact of the matter is that most natives don't talk like educated natives most of the time (even
if they are educated).
As for not being able to pass a test on British slang, well, even though they are the same language, British
English is more different from my particular kind of American English than any American "dialect" (if you can
even call it that) is from my English. Not to mention there are a wide range of types of British English, too. I
have very little trouble understanding someone with a thick southern accent even though they speak very very
differently and I don't usually use the words they are using. That's my point. Pretty much every American native
speaker of English knows the word "Ain't", and if you don't, you're not going to be able to understand many
Americans. Of course there are different words for different countries even if they speak the same language. I
wouldn't expect to speak Mexican Spanish and see the same slang used in Spain, or speak French and see the
same slang used in Canada.

The point is, what does it mean to speak "like a native"? Everyone has a different concept of it and a different
reason for wanting it. It's as impossible to define as the word "fluency". It's not something that you can test, no
matter how hard you try.

Personally, I would be more impressed by someone who spoke to me enthusiastically and well in my own
language than someone who claims to have passed a test that says they can speak my language. As Katzumoto
says, if you can speak the language, why not just do so, and let the native speakers of that language judge for
themselves how well you speak?

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