Is there a limit? (Polyglots) Language Learning Forum

Is there a limit?
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Language Learning Forum : Polyglots

11 messages over 2 pages: 1 2

yawn Bilingual Tetraglot Senior Member United States Joined 5428 days ago 141 posts - 209 votes Speaks: English, Mandarin, French^C2, Spanish^C2 Studies: German^B1	Message 9 of 11 25 April 2010 at 11:27pm \| IP Logged
	^ Thanks for the post, Iversen. Very insightful and thought-provoking. Just out of curiosity, would you consider someone who has reached the C levels of the Common European Framework in any language to have attained native or near-native fluency in that language? 1 person has voted this message useful
Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6705 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map	Message 10 of 11 26 April 2010 at 12:46am \| IP Logged
	Normally I don't think in the terms set out by the EU, so I had to look the self-assessment criteria up here before writing my answer. One thing that struck me while reading the criteria for speaking at the C1 and C2 levels is that pronunciation isn't even mentioned, - however I would guess that getting a native-sounding accent is the main problem if you want to be considered as near-native in one of your languages. Using the language in an idiomatic way is also necessary, but there are many native speakers who aren't too clever at expressing themselves. The strict conditions on your ability to express yourself in a cohesive, clear and precise way are problematic because much of what native speakers say or write can't live up to these demands. I find them of course very important on their own terms, but don't think that they are relevant for the distinction between near-native and merely advanced. Being too clever might in fact be a sign that you have studied your language in a way few native persons do. Besides the levels don't reflect the difference in difficulty between different skills. I would claim that I can read just about everything I have seen in Norwegian (including Nynorsk), and the same applies to for instance Scots and Low German. But I don't speak these languages or dialects. And I can write learned summaries in a language long before I come even close to avoiding simple morphological errors. The ability to do academical tasks like writing summaries has actually little to do with your ability to fool native speakers, which in my view is the fundamental criterion for acknowledging near-native skills. So I'm actually not too impressed by these assessment criteria. Edited by Iversen on 26 April 2010 at 12:57am 2 persons have voted this message useful
noriyuki_nomura Bilingual Octoglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 5342 days ago 304 posts - 465 votes Speaks: English, Mandarin, Japanese, French^C2, German^C2, Italian^C1, Spanish^B2, Dutch^B1 Studies: Turkish^A1, Korean	Message 11 of 11 26 April 2010 at 4:51pm \| IP Logged
	Pretty often, people judge our language capability by how well we speak the language, and I do agree with Iversen that, to be considered as near-native in a language, a native-sounding accent is important, and it is also the one that poses the main problem. Anyway, while studying for German and French (though I have passed the C2 level of the exams), I still don't feel that I am proficient in these languages at all...it's like: the more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know :( Edited by noriyuki_nomura on 26 April 2010 at 5:11pm 1 person has voted this message useful

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yawn Bilingual Tetraglot Senior Member United States Joined 5428 days ago 141 posts - 209 votes Speaks: English, Mandarin, French^C2, Spanish^C2 Studies: German^B1	Message 9 of 11 25 April 2010 at 11:27pm \| IP Logged
	^ Thanks for the post, Iversen. Very insightful and thought-provoking. Just out of curiosity, would you consider someone who has reached the C levels of the Common European Framework in any language to have attained native or near-native fluency in that language? 1 person has voted this message useful
Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6705 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map	Message 10 of 11 26 April 2010 at 12:46am \| IP Logged
	Normally I don't think in the terms set out by the EU, so I had to look the self-assessment criteria up here before writing my answer. One thing that struck me while reading the criteria for speaking at the C1 and C2 levels is that pronunciation isn't even mentioned, - however I would guess that getting a native-sounding accent is the main problem if you want to be considered as near-native in one of your languages. Using the language in an idiomatic way is also necessary, but there are many native speakers who aren't too clever at expressing themselves. The strict conditions on your ability to express yourself in a cohesive, clear and precise way are problematic because much of what native speakers say or write can't live up to these demands. I find them of course very important on their own terms, but don't think that they are relevant for the distinction between near-native and merely advanced. Being too clever might in fact be a sign that you have studied your language in a way few native persons do. Besides the levels don't reflect the difference in difficulty between different skills. I would claim that I can read just about everything I have seen in Norwegian (including Nynorsk), and the same applies to for instance Scots and Low German. But I don't speak these languages or dialects. And I can write learned summaries in a language long before I come even close to avoiding simple morphological errors. The ability to do academical tasks like writing summaries has actually little to do with your ability to fool native speakers, which in my view is the fundamental criterion for acknowledging near-native skills. So I'm actually not too impressed by these assessment criteria. Edited by Iversen on 26 April 2010 at 12:57am 2 persons have voted this message useful
noriyuki_nomura Bilingual Octoglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 5342 days ago 304 posts - 465 votes Speaks: English, Mandarin, Japanese, French^C2, German^C2, Italian^C1, Spanish^B2, Dutch^B1 Studies: Turkish^A1, Korean	Message 11 of 11 26 April 2010 at 4:51pm \| IP Logged
	Pretty often, people judge our language capability by how well we speak the language, and I do agree with Iversen that, to be considered as near-native in a language, a native-sounding accent is important, and it is also the one that poses the main problem. Anyway, while studying for German and French (though I have passed the C2 level of the exams), I still don't feel that I am proficient in these languages at all...it's like: the more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know :( Edited by noriyuki_nomura on 26 April 2010 at 5:11pm 1 person has voted this message useful