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A visit to the speech therapist | ||
Tags: Phonetics | Pronunciation | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Bakunin Diglot Senior Member Switzerland outerkhmer.blogspot. Joined 5133 days ago 531 posts - 1126 votes  Speaks: German*, Thai Studies: Khmer | Message 1 of 10 02 February 2014 at 8:13pm | IP Logged | |||||
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A while ago, about two years into learning Thai and at a stage where I just started speaking, I got very self-conscious about two sound pairs, a pair of consonants and a pair of vowels, which I thought I wasn't pronouncing correctly. So I booked 90 minutes with a speech therapist at a random Bangkok hospital.
The speech therapist made me read all the sounds of Thai to identify issues. Judging from her materials, she was dealing mostly with kids - as you would expect. And indeed those four sounds got marked as to be worked on. First the consonants: I couldn't clearly hear the difference between those two sounds, but when she explained to me what the difference in terms of mouth position and sound production was, I immediately got it - we do have a similar distinction in German. Within minutes, I was able to reliably produce those two sounds, and we moved on. From this moment on, I was able to clearly hear the difference between and produce those two sounds. Then the vowels: while I could clearly hear the difference between those two sounds, I didn't seem to be able to produce them correctly. She showed me what to do with my mouth, lips and tongue to produce those two sounds. We don't have those sounds in German, so it was really an eye-opener to get a clear explanation of what to do and immediate feedback. And, low and behold, I was able to get those two sounds down within the allotted time and haven't had any problems since. The visit to the speech therapist was a great use of my time and money. Just wanted to share this story as an encouragement to people in a similar situation. 16 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Woodsei Bilingual Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member United States justpaste.it/Woodsei Joined 4800 days ago 614 posts - 782 votes Speaks: English*, Arabic (Egyptian)* Studies: Russian, Japanese, Hungarian | Message 2 of 10 03 February 2014 at 7:54am | IP Logged | |||||
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I read and reread your Thai blog, so many times, it's that much of an inspiration for me
in my Japanese studies, a well as my forthcoming Russian. Like you I've initially experimented with a language course, before abandoning it for readers and native material, and basically just as close as possible to natural acquisition. I too have come to the conclusion that extensive reading and listening, and watching TV, via graded progression, is arguably the most fun way to learn a language of a country and it's culture, and, for me at least, the most effective. I was really delighted to see you here on HTLAL since reading your blog way back, and as usual, you've got some great insights to share. Keep up the good work! Edited by Woodsei on 03 February 2014 at 7:55am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4710 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 3 of 10 03 February 2014 at 11:29am | IP Logged | |||||
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Thanks for the story. Confirms my theory that you need to be able to produce the sound
before you hear the difference. 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Zireael Triglot Senior Member Poland Joined 4654 days ago 518 posts - 636 votes Speaks: Polish*, EnglishB2, Spanish Studies: German, Sign Language, Tok Pisin, Arabic (Yemeni), Old English | Message 4 of 10 03 February 2014 at 11:35am | IP Logged | |||||
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... and conversely, you need to hear a sound to be aware that it exists and attempt to produce it...
Heh, the hours I spent with speech therapists as a child... 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Bakunin Diglot Senior Member Switzerland outerkhmer.blogspot. Joined 5133 days ago 531 posts - 1126 votes Speaks: German*, Thai Studies: Khmer | Message 5 of 10 03 February 2014 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | |||||
@Woodsei: Thanks :)) I'm glad you found my experiences useful. There are many learners here on HTLAL who share our view that graded progression using native materials is fun and the way to go, and study maybe not, but then, thank goodness, there are many others who see it differently, contributing to this beautiful variety of opinions and ideas.
I think it's quite the contrary: you need to be able to hear/distinguish a sound first before you can pronounce it. But being able to clearly hear a sound is not always enough (obvious example: rolled r for speakers of languages without this sound... easy to hear, but difficult to produce). I was able to distinguish the vowels quite reliably, but since I didn't grow up watching my parents produce those sounds but rather listened to a lot of podcasts, blurry TV, and a tutor but with my eyes down on a picture book instead of his face, I had almost no chance to learn the correct position of the mouth. Once the therapist showed me what to do, I was able to produce, and then use my sound memory to self-correct in order to fine-tune production. Regarding the consonants, I don't really know why I was confused. My own, probably biased, theory is that I fell into the trap of over-analyzing. I'm absolutely convinced that you need to be able to distinguish sounds first before you can produce them. It's all about having a mental model which you use to self-correct your pronunciation. If you lack such a mental model, you cannot possibly know whether you say it right or not. That's, at least, my theory. I've got a Polish friend who can't pronounce the German 'e'. She claims she doesn't hear the difference between 'e' and 'ä'. She's told me recently that she's been to a speech therapist as well, but it didn't help. She still can't produce this sound, and she seems to have given up. Apart from this, her German is excellent. 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5169 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 6 of 10 03 February 2014 at 5:35pm | IP Logged | |||||
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It seems great Bakunin, but I suppose speech terapists can only give advice for their
native language. I know a speech terapist and while I could make use of a visit for my native language alone, I don't think she could help me with anything from the IPA chart which doesn't exist in Brazilian Portuguese. That makes me wonder if when booking a trip one should also try to book a visit to a speech terapist as part of cultural/linguistical pack. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Zireael Triglot Senior Member Poland Joined 4654 days ago 518 posts - 636 votes Speaks: Polish*, EnglishB2, Spanish Studies: German, Sign Language, Tok Pisin, Arabic (Yemeni), Old English | Message 7 of 10 03 February 2014 at 9:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
I suppose you are right unless you happen to know a multilingual speech therapist, but I think it's as likely as being miraculously cured :P 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5535 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 8 of 10 03 February 2014 at 9:20pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Cool story, Bakunin!
When I was very young, I had trouble with "th" sounds (I pronounced them as "f"). My school sent me to a speech therapist who explained the difference, and I sorted things out very quickly. More recently, I've watched speech therapists working with other children, and I've been very impressed. They work with everything from phonology to grammar, and some of them are very good at what they do. Now, when I was studying for the DELF, I worked with a very good French tutor. She was talented, and she had done advanced studies in second language acquisition. But what really stuck in my mind was this: There is surprisingly little difference between a really good speech therapist and really good language tutor. French speech therapists even have children's games for learning about gender and number agreement! So if you're living in country, and you know that your language is still a bit "off", I agree it might be worth looking for a good speech therapist who's happy to work with adults. Even with native kids, language acquisition sometimes goes off the rails, and in many countries, there are people who specialize in sorting that out.
Me, I lean towards native materials and lots of interaction, whenever possible. But I do study, too, in a haphazard sort of way, and I appreciate feedback from professionals with a good ear for mistakes. Quite often I'll kind-of sort-of understand something, and then I'll look it up, and it will all make sense. And then I'll hear it everywhere and it will get reinforced.
I've found that music can really help with this. You know the way that you can more-or-less imitate the vocal mannerisms of a singer after you've heard a song played a hundred times? Well, what I find is that if I sing along with a song I know well, then using the wrong vowel with almost sound like a "discord" in the music. It's almost like my brain decided decades ago that the French "ou" and the French "u" are really the same vowel. But music, especially music that I know by heart, seems to bypass this limitation, and I can sometimes hear that I sang "ou" instead of "u". It just jumps right out at me. This is also how I fixed my French R (which I used to tap). I kept singing along with Un Coup D'oeil Dans Le Métro, which has some lovely sustained French Rs in the refrain. And I had to get them right, or it sounded all wrong! And gradually, over the course of months, that R crept out into my day-to-day speech. 6 persons have voted this message useful |
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