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Any other programs similar to Michel Thomas | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Elexi Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5566 days ago 938 posts - 1840 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 25 of 34 27 February 2014 at 10:56pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Well - as I agree with you, albeit less vehemently, that MT is the best way to start a language we needn't fall
out :-) Needless to say, I disagree with you - especially about some of the issues with the way Thomas teaches the sound systems of languages (although that doesn't really bother me as the gains massively outweigh the risks). The victim of the verb thing for the accusative isn't the invention of the MT Method - it's been about for years in German and Latin teaching. Personally, I think it works, but it is curious (as the man himself would say) that Thomas skipped over cases in German entirely. To be more clear - what I am saying is that the Noble courses and the MT method should be in theory be better, having directly addressed the usual criticisms of MT courses - but they don't end up being so because they lack the very thing that annoys reviewers - the interaction with the dumb student and the sense of confidence (even slight arrogance) this builds in the real person. That carries more weight in making the listener receptive to learning than a perfect accent or wider depth. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6910 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 26 of 34 27 February 2014 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Haha, I haven't listened to that course, but have always thought of a noun in the accusative case as the "victim".
Great minds think alike. ;) Edited by jeff_lindqvist on 27 February 2014 at 11:02pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4829 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 27 of 34 01 March 2014 at 1:17am | IP Logged | ||||||||
"Say Something in Welsh" has a similar sort of approach, with the added benefit that you get to listen to native speakers and also a male and female voice. I'd also say that it's more thorough, and goes further. The SSi people are also working on Spanish, Dutch and other courses. "You Speak German" is very similar to "Say Something in Welsh", although done by someone else. There is a bit more emphasis on grammar, but it's still very heavily speaking-oriented. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| boon Diglot Groupie Ireland Joined 6160 days ago 91 posts - 177 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Mandarin, Latin | Message 28 of 34 01 March 2014 at 9:43pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I did Michel Thomas French, German and Spanish.
They're good courses, but it's probably better to have a little knowledge of the language first. Otherwise you might pick up dodgy pronunciation (although you CAN correct bad habits later, contrary to what some people think). His pronunciation is actually okay when he's speaking normally, but when he emphasises words he sometimes pronounces words rather eccentrically (and I'm not talking about exaggerated stress, which isn't a problem in my opinion). I'm grateful to the courses for helping me master certain tricky aspects of the romance languages' grammar. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| ericblair Senior Member United States Joined 4712 days ago 480 posts - 700 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 29 of 34 02 March 2014 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
What other kind of resource would you say is best to use prior to MT? Edited by ericblair on 02 March 2014 at 4:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| boon Diglot Groupie Ireland Joined 6160 days ago 91 posts - 177 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Mandarin, Latin | Message 30 of 34 02 March 2014 at 9:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Definitely a good pronunciation guide, like the FSI French Phonology Guide: http://fsi-language-courses.org/Content.php?page=French+Phon ology The Hugo in 3 Months series tend to have good advice on pronunciation (obviously it's best to have the audio as well). You may find it a help to get a quick overview of the grammar of a language first, but then again maybe it's not such a big deal. Personally I didn't use the MT courses as a total newcomer to the languages, so I don't know for sure. Having said that, I did try maybe one or two CDs of the MT Arabic course (made with a different teacher plus a native speaker). I didn't find it difficult but then again I don't think it seemed to cover as much ground as the old MT courses. Plus I only did a small portion of the course. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5784 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 31 of 34 02 March 2014 at 9:30pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
We're not falling out, mate. That was tongue in cheek. I like you and your posts. Well I genuinely found the "victim of the verb" thing confusing in my own studies (and I actually enjoy grammar!) and only really grasped the case system from FSI. Such vague approaches might be necessary for languages like Russian or Latin that have cases that don't even exist in English; but German doesn't need that and cases can and should be introduced via the pronoun system IMO. I honestly believe that's how Thomas would have approached it: if students already have the difficult part (the actual concept of case) in another part of the language, just get them to extend it to nouns, adjectives etc. This is even easier because of the (non-coincidental IMO) correspondences between the pronouns and the endings in German. Indeed independently of Thomas and FSI, I remember the ever-interesting Alaric Hall explaining Old English cases via English pronouns in one of his videos. It's easy, obvious and intuitive. You make a lot of good points in the rest of your post that I won't go through because I mostly agree. I will add some emphasis to your point about confidence, though. I remember with Spanish mostly comparing my pronunciation with the students rather than Thomas. At that point (absolute beginner in my first foreign language) even Thomas' pronunciation (which now seems mediocre to me) was literally unattainable to me (and how much more would this apply when the teacher is a native!!!!); but iI could clearly hear what the students were doing to sounds and knew that if my pronunciation was at least as good as that of the students (and it was), I knew that when he stopped correcting them, I too had grasped the most important parts of the pronunciation point being taught. That is why I find reports that Natasha Bershadsky stops correcting pronunciation errors for long periods scare me off using her course (even though I know she herself will be modelling perfect pronunciation throughout). . Edited by Random review on 02 March 2014 at 9:42pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| jpazzz Groupie United States Joined 5046 days ago 54 posts - 76 votes Studies: Russian | Message 32 of 34 16 March 2014 at 8:37am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Hello, Whereas the original question had to do with alternative, perhaps similar courses to the MT and MT method courses, the thread appears to have evolved to another one of the I like MT/I don't like MT discussions. So I'll throw in my own limited take on the subject. I think the point that's often missed in discussions of the MT and MT Method courses is that they are intended for people who aren't already knowledgeable in the target language, probably don't particularly enjoy language study, and want something that will give them palpable skills without too much drudgery. The negative criticisms (please allow me to be pedant and suggest that in my former field of literary analysis, the word criticism means analysis and can be negative, positive, or neutral; it is in fact analysis) of MT and MT method courses come almost always from people who probably already know a good deal about the language involved. They will pick upon one or another point that they feel should have been done differently/better. But the students of MT (live), MT (recorded), or MT Method courses, either liked (often loved) the way it all went, or they didn't. Seldom will you find a beginner in a language course complaining about the fact that cases or aspect or subtleties of pronunciation were flubbed or could have been better.
Now, onto me. I had the good fortune more than fifty years ago to spend some time at a Goethe Institute (sorry, guys, no umlautes on my typewriter) in Bavaria. It was really impressive. The staff were able to teach a wide variety of people from rank beginners to people prepping for German Universities (not, of course in the same classes!)and did it all (including German grammar) in the target language, German. It set me up nicely for later language exams for both MA and Ph.D. (Hey, this is Gunther Grass! No wonder my translation doesn't make any sense!) Then, I let German go completely while I hustled and bustled and stumbled around the halls of academe. When, around 2000, I decided that I wanted to revisit German, I found that I preferred the courses that were either all or mostly in German: Linguaphone and, best of all, Berlitz Think and Talk German. Then Linguaphone "Advanced" German. Then, because I like Russian movies better than German movies, I decided to start on Russian...probably a stupid move for one as aged as I. I tried a number of approaches, notably Linguaphone, but with dismal results. Since I had once had what might be called an almost photographic memory, my abilities to learn the Cyrillic alphabet were slow and painful. I couldn't get past chapter one of Linguaphone (both the 1940s and the current, 1971 versions defeated me) or Hugo's. When I was looking into reviving my moribund German, I had sampled Michel Thomas, and found I didn't like HIM...his method seemed fine. So, when I was just about to quit Russian, I discovered MT Method Russian. And I found that I really like Natasha Bershadski (Spelling?). I like her voice, manner, and personality. I like the way she has structured the course, and the whole thing worked for me. She was/is, I think an extremely good teacher. Having gone through and prospered from all three of the courses, I feel that now I can face Linguaphone. Was MT Method Russian perfect? No, of course not. Did I learn/was I taught stuff that was wrong? Probably, (I taught a number of generations of students that all teachers make mistakes; they wouldn't make then if they knew they were mistakes.) Was MT/NB good? Decidedly...for me. I'll close as I began. I suggest that when applying negative criticisms to courses, be sure to take the target audience into consideration. And then I'll open a new thread asking if anyone has any actual experience with Spoken Language Services Russian...I find I like a bit of audio-lingual parroting when doing grammar. Cheers, John 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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