Ladino (Specific Languages) Language Learning Forum

Ladino
Tags: Ladino
Share with: Delicious Digg reddit Facebook StumbleUpon
Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages

12 messages over 2 pages: 1 2 Next >>

Random review
Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 5784 days ago
781 posts - 1310 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German

Message 1 of 12

29 June 2014 at 1:54am | IP Logged

The thread on the origins of Yiddish reminded me of something I wanted to say for ages:

In my opinion, Ladino is not a separate language but a (rather interesting and unusual)
dialect of Spanish.

There, I've said it.

I expect people to disagree and I'm prepared to be dissuaded, but for now that is how
it seems to me. If you know German, you cannot just listen to a Yiddish conversation
and expect to understand most of what is going on; my contention is that, if you know
Spanish, you can do just that with Ladino.

Particularly striking was a video I watched where the introduction was in Hebrew (I
know no Hebrew), it might as well have been in Samoan for my purposes because I didn't
understand a word....then the speaker went up to the podium. At this point I was
expecting to go from 0% comprehension to struggling and straining to catch maybe 50% of
what he was saying (as is my experience watching videos in Yiddish). No. I understood
him almost perfectly. Because I wasn't expecting it, it felt almost magical, I was
actually laughing with joy watching it.

So OK, I thought. That was a formal lecture, colloquial language must be more
difficult...and indeed it is (what little you can find on YouTube)...but that's OK!!!!
You pop me down in Santiago or Quito or any other City where the Spanish dialect is
unfamiliar to me (most of the TV I've watched was from Spain, Mexico or Argentina) and
I'd also struggle for a few weeks, yet they are unequivocally dialects; why should I
hold Ladino to higher standards?

For me at the moment it's a Spanish dialect, albeit one that has diverged more than the
others. I'm happy to be proved wrong on this.

Edited by Random review on 29 June 2014 at 1:57am
1 person has voted this message useful

hrhenry
Octoglot
Senior Member
United States
languagehopper.blogs
Joined 5131 days ago
1871 posts - 3642 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish^C2, Italian^C2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese
Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe

Message 2 of 12

29 June 2014 at 3:33am | IP Logged

Random review wrote:

For me at the moment it's a Spanish dialect, albeit one that has diverged more than the
others. I'm happy to be proved wrong on this.

Does it really matter either way? Classifying it as either a language or a dialect won't change how it's been used or is currently used.

There is an organization in Israel that has the goal of preserving its use:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoridad_Nasionala_del_Ladino

although curiously it doesn't seem to regulate its usage, only promote it.

If Ladino survives, it would be interesting to see how it has developed after a century of renewed interest.

R.
==
1 person has voted this message useful

iguanamon
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Virgin Islands
Speaks: Ladino
Joined 5263 days ago
2241 posts - 6731 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French)

Message 3 of 12

29 June 2014 at 4:41am | IP Logged

Judgments based on a cursory, casual and light observation can sometimes be tricky. Yes, Ladino comes from Spanish, 15th century Spanish. There are many words that are, indeed, Spanish words but are no longer used in modern Spanish like "meldar" - "to read" - "leer(SP)" and "kualo".

There are also a ton of imports from other languages such as Turkish, Greek, Italian, French, Hebrew and Arabic, to name a few. "Zarzavatchi" - vegetables from Turkish. "Domingo (SP)" is not the word for Sunday in Ladino but the Arabic word "Alhad" is. "Trabajar (SP)" is not the verb for to work, rather "Lavorar" from Italian is what is used to represent this concept in Ladino. "Sinagoga" is not the word for Synagogue in Ladino, it's "Kal" from Hebrew. "Bohor" - oldest son from Hebrew. "Kayik" - small boat from Turkish. "Mazal" - luck - from Hebrew, etc., etc. I could go on and on.

Before I had to put Ladino into low maintenance mode (intending to return to in a few weeks or so), I wrote this post in my log about my frustrations with this "non-language":

iguanamon wrote:

I could study for the next 100 years and never speak Ladino (Judeo-Spanish) properly, the idioms and puns involving the choice of when to use a Turkish, Greek or Hebrew origin word over a Spanish origin word for effect is an aspect of the language I will never manage to acquire due to the moribund nature of the language, the lack of opportunity to speak with native-speakers and the lack of popular Ladino media. Even if I had all that, without that multilingual background, I wouldn't be able to speak Ladino with that skill. The right word, paraphrasing Mark Twain, is the difference between "lightning" and the "lightning bug".

The few Sephardim remaining who still speak Ladino grew up multilingual. They were surrounded by Turkish, Greek, Arabic, Hebrew and French at school. Later they learned Spanish, Hebrew or English in the diaspora. They spoke Judeo-Spanish at home and incorporated a lot of that mixture into their language in a playful way that showcases their mastery of language skills in general. Could I have a conversation in Ladino now, yes, but I will never speak it with the dexterity and flow that I can with my other imperfectly spoken languages. I accept that. It will be enough for me to get used to the language and appreciate those qualities and aspects that make it unique as a language. Will I claim to speak Ladino? Even if I do at some point, that ability will only be to a certain level- "not bad for a foreigner", perhaps. Which is what I strive for anyway. ...

Here's an illustration of the problem from the Manual of Judeo-Spanish

Manual of Judeo-Spanish wrote:

Doktor Maymunidis! is what one says to someone who poses and claims to be smart. One might think that this is some sort of deformation due to ignorance about the Córdoba philospher Maimonides which in Judeo-Spanish is Maymonides. But that would be quite wrong, for one also needs to hear in this name the Turkish maymun of the same etymon, meaning "monkey" and the greek -idis with which Greeks of the Black Sea area form family names. What these irreverent Spanish Jews are making fun of, then, in the first level, is not the great Maimonides but rather (calling someone) a monkey, furthermore a Greek, who takes himself for a Maimonides. And tough luck if he didn't get it! Here is the essence of Judeo-Spanish...

So, how am I ever going to have this skill not being fluent in, or surrounded by, Hebrew, Greek and Turkish? I'm not. Perhaps I may have a semblance of it if I can manage to memorize a few of these and employ them as needed. It won't come as naturally to me as an idiom in Spanish or Portuguese, or even Haitian Creole would though. Source: my log "A Rashi Decision (scroll down)

Ultimately, yes, there is a huge degree of mutual intelligibility between Ladino and Spanish (depending on how a speaker decides to speak)- as well as between Spanish and Catalan, Spanish and Portuguese and Spanish and Italian. Italian and French are quite similar languages. Is Italian, then, a dialect of French? (No.) Despite my high level of Spanish, the turns of phrase and foreign idioms like this "Doktor Maymunidis" vex me. I can get the gist with my Spanish and Portuguese knowledge. After studying and reading the language the bit I have, quite a bit more is clear to me because I have learned some of the Turkish, Greek, Hebrew and Arabic loan words.

I can get the gist of French because of my knowledge of Spanish, Portuguese, English and especially Haitian Creole. I have no problems reading one of emk's French posts, but I couldn't write or speak it. I can also understand a great deal of Italian for the same reasons.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I am far from a linguist. I have never studied linguistics and would not be qualified to do so. People can make their own judgments. What is a language? Are Danish and Norwegian separate languages? "Rye bread, butter and green cheese is good English and good Fries (Frisian)." Is Lowland Scots a language? That call is above my pay-grade. So, I won't be able to argue the point with the experts here on the forum.

Lastly, have a listen to this modern Ladino play (video) in Israel La Primavera- una piesa teatrala and tell me how much of it you understand (after the long Heberew introduction).

Mersi muncho, adyo.

Edited by iguanamon on 29 June 2014 at 4:52am
3 persons have voted this message useful

Random review
Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 5784 days ago
781 posts - 1310 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German

Message 4 of 12

29 June 2014 at 5:21am | IP Logged

hrhenry wrote:

Random review wrote:

For me at the moment it's a Spanish dialect, albeit one that has diverged more than the
others. I'm happy to be proved wrong on this.

Does it really matter either way? Classifying it as either a language or a dialect won't change how it's been
used or is currently used.

There is an organization in Israel that has the goal of preserving its use:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoridad_Nasionala_del_Ladino

although curiously it doesn't seem to regulate its usage, only promote it.

If Ladino survives, it would be interesting to see how it has developed after a century of renewed interest.

R.
==

It matters to me, though. It slightly changes the story of what is actually an extraordinary piece of history.
1 person has voted this message useful

Random review
Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 5784 days ago
781 posts - 1310 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German

Message 5 of 12

29 June 2014 at 5:37am | IP Logged

iguanamon wrote:

Judgments based on a cursory, casual and light observation can sometimes be
tricky. Yes, Ladino comes from Spanish, 15th century Spanish. There are many words that are, indeed,
Spanish words but are no longer used in modern Spanish like "meldar" - "to read" - "leer(SP)" and "kualo".

There are also a ton of imports from other languages such as Turkish, Greek, Italian, French, Hebrew and
Arabic, to name a few. "Zarzavatchi" - vegetables from Turkish. "Domingo (SP)" is not the word for Sunday
in Ladino but the Arabic word "Alhad" is. "Trabajar (SP)" is not the verb for to work, rather "Lavorar" from
Italian is what is used to represent this concept in Ladino. "Sinagoga" is not the word for Synagogue in
Ladino, it's "Kal" from Hebrew. "Bohor" - oldest son from Hebrew. "Kayik" - small boat from Turkish.
"Mazal" - luck - from Hebrew, etc., etc. I could go on and on.

Before I had to put Ladino into low maintenance mode (intending to return to in a few weeks or so), I wrote

this post in my log about my frustrations with this "non-language":

iguanamon wrote:

I could study for the next 100 years and never speak Ladino (Judeo-Spanish)
properly, the idioms and puns involving the choice of when to use a Turkish, Greek or Hebrew origin word
over a Spanish origin word for effect is an aspect of the language I will never manage to acquire due to the
moribund nature of the language, the lack of opportunity to speak with native-speakers and the lack of
popular Ladino media. Even if I had all that, without that multilingual background, I wouldn't be able to
speak Ladino with that skill. The right word, paraphrasing Mark Twain, is the difference between
"lightning" and the "lightning bug".

The few Sephardim remaining who still speak Ladino grew up multilingual. They were surrounded by
Turkish, Greek, Arabic, Hebrew and French at school. Later they learned Spanish, Hebrew or English in the
diaspora. They spoke Judeo-Spanish at home and incorporated a lot of that mixture into their language in
a playful way that showcases their mastery of language skills in general. Could I have a conversation in
Ladino now, yes, but I will never speak it with the dexterity and flow that I can with my other imperfectly
spoken languages. I accept that. It will be enough for me to get used to the language and appreciate those

qualities and aspects that make it unique as a language. Will I claim to speak Ladino? Even if I do at some
point, that ability will only be to a certain level- "not bad for a foreigner", perhaps. Which is what I strive for
anyway. ...

Here's an illustration of the problem from the Manual of Judeo-Spanish

Manual of Judeo-Spanish wrote:

Doktor Maymunidis! is what one says to someone who poses
and claims to be smart. One might think that this is some sort of deformation due to ignorance about the
Córdoba philospher Maimonides which in Judeo-Spanish is Maymonides. But that would be
quite wrong, for one also needs to hear in this name the Turkish maymun of the same etymon,
meaning "monkey" and the greek -idis with which Greeks of the Black Sea area form family names.
What these irreverent Spanish Jews are making fun of, then, in the first level, is not the great
Maimonides but rather (calling someone) a monkey, furthermore a Greek, who takes himself for a
Maimonides. And tough luck if he didn't get it! Here is the essence of Judeo-Spanish...

So, how am I ever going to have this skill not being fluent in, or surrounded by, Hebrew, Greek and Turkish?
I'm not. Perhaps I may have a semblance of it if I can manage to memorize a few of these and employ
them as needed. It won't come as naturally to me as an idiom in Spanish or Portuguese, or even Haitian
Creole would though. TID=37970&PN=1&TPN=7">Source: my log "A Rashi Decision (scroll down)

Ultimately, yes, there is a huge degree of mutual intelligibility between Ladino and Spanish (depending on
how a speaker decides to speak)- as well as between Spanish and Catalan, Spanish and Portuguese and
Spanish and Italian. Italian and French are quite similar languages. Is Italian, then, a dialect of French?
(No.) Despite my high level of Spanish, the turns of phrase and foreign idioms like this "Doktor
Maymunidis" vex me. I can get the gist with my Spanish and Portuguese knowledge. After studying and
reading the language the bit I have, quite a bit more is clear to me because I have learned some of the
Turkish, Greek, Hebrew and Arabic loan words.

I can get the gist of French because of my knowledge of Spanish, Portuguese, English and especially
Haitian Creole. I have no problems reading one of emk's French posts, but I couldn't write or speak it.
I can also understand a great deal of Italian for the same reasons.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I am far from a linguist. I have never studied linguistics and
would not be qualified to do so. People can make their own judgments. What is a language? Are Danish
and Norwegian separate languages? "Rye bread, butter and green cheese is good English and good Fries
(Frisian)." Is Lowland Scots a language? That call is above my pay-grade. So, I won't be able to argue the
point with the experts here on the forum.

Lastly, have a listen to this modern Ladino play (video) in Israel v=3135lrRGRls">La Primavera- una piesa teatrala and tell me how much of it you understand (after
the long Heberew introduction).

Mersi muncho, adyo.

OK, Iguanamon, thanks for such a detailed reply. Some good arguments there and you are actually
starting to change my mind, but permit me to argue the case a little bit longer. I have studied French for
years at school and spent more time already on Portuguese and Italian than I ever will with Ladino and
yetI certainly couldn't understand a random academic lecture. I could maybe get the bery basic gist of the
Portuguese and Italian one (if the subject was familiar and the Portuguese speaker spoke slowly enough);
but I could never tune in not knowing what the lecture was about (remember that I didn't understand a
word of the introduction because it was in Hebrew) and understand 95%+ of what was being said, so there
is a difference there.
Secondly, some of what you say applies to any dialect of Spanish other than the one you learned. I love
Mexican Spanish and used to watch TV programs and films, and it's all very well knowing that Mexicans
say "chamba" where Spaniards say "curro" etc; but could I correctly use expressions like "épale"? No. Not
witnout having the opportunity to interact woth speakers of this dialect for an extended period. Similarly
all the Spanish dialects have incorporated words form othe languages, often different ones (cacahuate
and cacahuete come from a different source to maní). You could study any of these dialects for years
before having a hope of mastering them.

I don't doubt for a second that Ladino is "more different" or (to put it more precisely) something of an
outlier. I just had the impression that it was closer to being akin to the difference between Madrid, Buenos
Aires and Mexico City, than that between Madrid, Rome and Lisbon.

Having said all that, you made some good points and I'm now not so sure.

Edited by Random review on 29 June 2014 at 5:41am
1 person has voted this message useful

Random review
Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 5784 days ago
781 posts - 1310 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German

Message 6 of 12

29 June 2014 at 5:39am | IP Logged

I'll tidy that post up as soon as get on a computer. I don't know why my posts always look like that when I
post from a tablet on this forum.
1 person has voted this message useful

Random review
Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 5784 days ago
781 posts - 1310 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German

Message 7 of 12

29 June 2014 at 6:00am | IP Logged

Update: just watched the beginning of that play. First off, thanks for this. I had no idea such things existed
(and I have actually looked for videos in Ladino!!!!!), it made me happy.

Right, the first thing to note is that my comprehension of the opening dialogue was low, I can't deny it. The
second thing is that as soon as the woman started her monologue I felt I understood again. I've had very
similar experiences trying to understand videos in Chilean Spanish, so this kind of fluctuating
comprehension is exactly what I would expect when dealing with an unfamiliar dialect.

You're a native English speaker, how much do you think someone who had learned American English as a
second language would understand this guy? It's still English though, isn't it?

link
1 person has voted this message useful

iguanamon
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Virgin Islands
Speaks: Ladino
Joined 5263 days ago
2241 posts - 6731 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French)

Message 8 of 12

29 June 2014 at 12:51pm | IP Logged

Random, nothing I say, or do, will change your mind. Believe what you want to believe.

Edited by iguanamon on 29 June 2014 at 4:58pm

1 person has voted this message useful

This discussion contains 12 messages over 2 pages: 1 2 Next >>

Printable version

You cannot post new topics in this forum - You cannot reply to topics in this forum - You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum - You cannot create polls in this forum - You cannot vote in polls in this forum

This page was generated in 0.3594 seconds.