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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| annierooney Groupie United States Joined 6702 days ago 48 posts - 48 votes Studies: Spanish | Message 121 of 185 25 September 2008 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | ||
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[QUOTE=Cainntear] Thomas always used pure vowels (required in Spanish). RLH used English diphthongs (so the "se" "dormirse" would be pronounced like the English "say" -- or the Spanish "sei").
Thomas's vowel quality was invariant and independent of stress, so had only 5 vowels. RLH's vowels change under stress, most notably the East-USA stressed "A" sound. Her pronunciation of "Hablar" sounds like "ablaur" to UK ears. I agree. It's something that's not emphasized enough, at even at all, in most Spanish courses. MT returns again and again to correct his English-speaking students who continue to have trouble throughout the course with the vowels, especially the e. I was sliding into dipthongs without even realizing it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Kugel Senior Member United States Joined 6539 days ago 497 posts - 555 votes  Speaks: English* | Message 122 of 185 26 September 2008 at 2:08pm | IP Logged | ||
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Does anyone know why MT didn't trill the R in the Spanish and Italian courses? Is this not a big deal?
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| awake Senior Member United States Joined 6637 days ago 406 posts - 438 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Esperanto, Spanish | Message 123 of 185 26 September 2008 at 3:09pm | IP Logged | ||
It took me several weeks of dedicated practice to be able to do it. And I still sometimes have trouble with it (once I get it going I can keep doing it, but getting it the first time I try is often a frustrating experience). If you search this forum, you'll see quite a few posts from people having trouble doing it. So I would guess one of two answers to your questions (and they are just guesses). 1) perhaps MT simply couldnt do it. A lot of people give up trying to learn it because it is so frustrating. 2) possibly (and perhaps more likely) MT may have felt that it would lead to such frustration if he tried to teach it to beginners, it would reduce the effectiveness of his method. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| DaraghM Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6152 days ago 1947 posts - 2923 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Russian, Hungarian | Message 124 of 185 29 September 2008 at 6:14am | IP Logged | ||
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I think he used to be able to roll his R's, but when the courses were recorded, he was old, and had dentures or a gum plate.
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| Master Thomas Newbie United States Joined 5995 days ago 30 posts - 30 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin, Indonesian | Message 125 of 185 07 November 2008 at 11:32am | IP Logged | ||
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Just curious, I have finished and am quite familiar with all of Michel's courses for Italian, including the Rose Lee Hayden vocabulary course, and have also finished Pimsleur's Italian I-III. Where exactly would that put me on the proficiency chart? I have very much mastered everything on those particular programs.
Sorry if this question was posted in the wrong place. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| TheBiscuit Tetraglot Senior Member Mexico Joined 5924 days ago 532 posts - 619 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Italian Studies: German, Croatian | Message 126 of 185 09 November 2008 at 9:27pm | IP Logged | ||
About half a bottle of wine will get you rolling your r like a native! I don't think an MT course is the best place to look for pronunciation! Except maybe the German one. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6012 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 127 of 185 10 November 2008 at 6:06am | IP Logged | ||
I disagree. While I would agree that a native speaker should be able to teach accents better the a foreigner, most can't. The difference between what Thomas does and what the majority of other teachers do is quite simple, yet very subtle: Received wisdom: The only way to replicate a foreign sound is by listening to it. I agrees, but I would add two caveats: 1: Being able to produce a similar sound makes it easier to hear what the foreign sound is. Going back to my example of pure vowels vs diphthongs, if there's no pure vowels in your world, then when you hear them your brain may well continue to "hear" them as diphthongs, equivalent to your accent. 2: If two sounds sound similar to your non-native ear, but are different to a native ear, you must make a distinction in your pronunciation. If your brain learns two different sounds as one, then the two will be inextricably linked and any future exposure to the difference will seem meaningless, as though they are simply variations in accent. Thomas does this, more or less (the lack of distinción in the Spanish course being one notable exception), whether he knew it or not. This is exactly the same as the argument over immersion vs grammar teaching. Many people here agree that immersion is the best way to "learn" a language, but that it's hopelessly inefficient at the beginner level. What Thomas builds up is a framework which allows us to function in the language, and prepares us for immersion in the accent. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Kugel Senior Member United States Joined 6539 days ago 497 posts - 555 votes Speaks: English* | Message 128 of 185 14 November 2008 at 2:41pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'm not very big on replicating foreign sounds 100 percent either, but trilling Rs is paramount for Spanish and Italian. Not paying close attention to trilled Rs would be like not paying close attention to tones in tonal languages. Or is this comparison too extreme?
If the students couldn't trill the R, then MT should have offered a substitute, if there is one. Apparently Lenin couldn't trill his Rs, and some dialects in Arabic don't trill their Rs. I see no reason to fret about not sounding like a native, just as long as the accent isn't "overwhelming." So, ignoring trilled Rs in Italian and Spanish is unwise. My guess is that because the lessons had to be condensed into 8 hours for the "foundation" and 4 hours for the "advanced", which by the way curtails lots of important info commonly found in 1st year textbooks, the basic sounds of the targeted language had to be ignored. Edited by Kugel on 14 November 2008 at 2:43pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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