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Uniqueness of "until" in English | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| yong321 Groupie United States yong321.freeshe Joined 5546 days ago 80 posts - 104 votes  Studies: Spanish | Message 1 of 31 23 November 2009 at 4:17am | IP Logged | ||
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The English sentence "The scientists didn't find a solution until now" implies they found a solution now. The word "直到" in Chinese doesn't have this implication. (It's more like "so far" instead.) I guess "hasta" in Spanish and "jusque" in French don't have it either. Am I correct?
Once, an Indian friend of mine said something like "Till today he didn't find his book". I clarified with him and he told me he meant the person still hasn't found his book. A Dutch person (through email) once also made this "mistake". So I think it's uncommon, perhaps only in English, that this word has this implication? 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| AlexL Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7088 days ago 197 posts - 277 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 2 of 31 23 November 2009 at 5:01am | IP Logged | ||
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Is "The scientists didn't find a solution until now" a correct English sentence? Or should it be "The scientists had
not found a solution until today"? That sounds more natural to me. And in that case, I think the past perfect tense works together with until to suggest that a solution was found today. "Had not found" implies that the not finding occurred in the past BEFORE another event in the past--that other event being the finding of a solution. In Spanish I believe it is the same -- if you say "Los científicos no habían encontrado una solución hasta hoy" you imply that they found a solution today. But I am not sure because I am not a native Spanish speaker. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| maaku Senior Member United States Joined 5578 days ago 359 posts - 562 votes Speaks: English* | Message 3 of 31 23 November 2009 at 5:44am | IP Logged | ||
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They both sound natural to me (native speaker), although it's more clear what's going on in the past perfect tense.
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| Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6772 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek | Message 4 of 31 23 November 2009 at 6:54am | IP Logged | ||
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I think that using the past perfect in English ("hadn't found a solution until now") is slightly more grammatical. I see
a grammatical contradiction in using the simple past even though it might be common in colloquial speech. In Japanese, the equivalent construction using まで also implies that a solution has been found so long as you use the past-resultative form. 今までは、問題への解決法を見つけていなか った。 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| parasitius Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6002 days ago 220 posts - 323 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin Studies: Cantonese, Polish, Spanish, French | Message 5 of 31 23 November 2009 at 7:55am | IP Logged | ||
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I can't believe anyone would question the grammaticalness of the phrase. Try
substituting nouns. "I didn't know you were here until just now." You can't get more perfect, simple and common than that. Actually I noticed there are a lot of totally totally normal constructions in English that you wouldn't hesitate for a second to say are grammatical in the context of a paragraph or conversation, but once one of them is isolated we over think it and question it. I've had a similar experience ... countless (unhappy) times with Chinese people reporting to me things like "He didn't find a job until today." "Oh, great! So where'll he be working?" "No, no. He didn't find a job until today EVEN." "(under my breath) bugger auff!" Can anyone report on any other languages? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Hencke Tetraglot Moderator Spain Joined 6898 days ago 2340 posts - 2444 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Finnish, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 6 of 31 23 November 2009 at 8:44am | IP Logged | ||
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In Spanish the verb form will express which one it is (similar to Japanese as mentioned above I guess):
"No habían encontrado una solución hasta ahora" - they have found it now "No han encontrado una solución hasta ahora" - they are still trying You could use "hasta ahora", "hasta hoy" or "hasta la fecha". Edited by Hencke on 23 November 2009 at 8:53am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6772 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek | Message 7 of 31 23 November 2009 at 10:15am | IP Logged | ||
There is a difference, because "be" is stative. Likewise, I think the following is fine: "The scientists didn't have a solution until now" because "have" is stative. But since "find" is a momentary act, the past perfect creates a stative construction and sounds better. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6707 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 8 of 31 23 November 2009 at 10:19am | IP Logged | ||
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Danish: "Videnskabsmændene har ikke fundet en løsning før nu" - they have (at last) found a solution
Danish: "Videnskabsmændene har ikke fundet en løsning endnu" - they have still not found a solution (cfr ENG=yet) 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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