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Uniqueness of "until" in English | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5525 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes  Speaks: Swedish* | Message 9 of 31 23 November 2009 at 12:05pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Swedish is just like Danish in this regard.
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| Sennin Senior Member Bulgaria Joined 6038 days ago 1457 posts - 1759 votes 5 sounds | Message 10 of 31 23 November 2009 at 1:52pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
"The scientists didn't find a solution until now" is confusing, and most likely wrong. There are some verbs that can be used in this way - know, have, think, sense, see,... "Find" is a different beast altogether, like the majority of verbs it needs the perfect. That's the case because you specify a moment in the present, and there is some action happening before it. I am not a native speaker, so that's just the standard usage I'm schooled to recognize. Colloquial speech is more flexible, so it probably doesn't make a huge difference. Nonetheless, it's a good idea to stick to the standard usage when writing. p.s. After reading the sentence about 5 times, I'm not so sure any more! Uh. I suppose both are possible with some difference in meaning. "Haven't found a solution until now " puts the accent on the outcome - there is a solution now, and there was no solution before. The other variant, "didn't find a solution until now", puts the accent on the momentary act of discovery; But I still think the perfect tense is the more common usage. Edited by Sennin on 23 November 2009 at 2:40pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6015 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 11 of 31 23 November 2009 at 2:17pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
As others have said, there are different classes of verbs and there are special cases. To me "The scientists didn't find a solution until now" sounds very unnatural. When I hear "the scientists didn't find a solution until..." makes me expect a time in the past, and "now" isn't. "Just now" is slightly different, because it says just a moment ago, but still, I would expect to hear something like "a moment ago" "an hour ago" -- a time specifically in the past. Consider "have you had any coffee this morning?" and "did you have any coffee this morning?" The first would only be said during the morning (ie it is still this morning) whereas the second would only be said in the afternoon, evening or night. The preterite (past simple) takes a time reference completely in the past, whereas the present perfect makes reference to an unfinished period (ie including now). "Know" in your example is a very special case, and it's something that would be unlikely to be said in anything other than the first person -- it's a kind of instantaneous reaction: it's true at the instant of utterance. When you're talking about someone else's experience, you can't say it at exactly the same time as they experience it, because they need to tell you before you can tell anyone else.
And that's why you accept the structure as genuine English (even though it's not): you've heard it lots of times, so your brain has done its best to make sense of it. Edited by Cainntear on 23 November 2009 at 2:18pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| parasitius Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6002 days ago 220 posts - 323 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin Studies: Cantonese, Polish, Spanish, French | Message 12 of 31 23 November 2009 at 2:33pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I'm about to freak out and break down and have a serious personal crisis. I'm reading this over and over... and though I'm supposed to be native... and though I've always done my best to have a very strong negative emotion inside every time I hear damaged English so as to prevent it from having an effect on me, ... no matter how hard or long I think about this I cannot seem to resolve if what you guys are saying is true or not. On one hand I feel that I should be able to be confident about what *I'm* saying, and on the other I'm scared to death... like I've been lobotomized in my sleep and being told after the fact with utter disbelief 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| anamsc Triglot Senior Member Andorra Joined 6207 days ago 296 posts - 382 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Catalan Studies: Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Written), French | Message 13 of 31 23 November 2009 at 4:30pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Don't worry. I'm a native speaker, and "The scientists didn't find a solution until now" sounds perfectly fine to me. I'm not saying we're right, but at least you're not alone! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
 Hencke Tetraglot Moderator Spain Joined 6898 days ago 2340 posts - 2444 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Finnish, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 14 of 31 23 November 2009 at 5:13pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I'm not a native speaker though I have found more often than not I can trust my instinctive "inner ear" when it comes to English, and "The scientists didn't find a solution until now" sounds weird to me. On the other hand, "The scientists didn't find a solution until last week" sounds fine. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6443 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 15 of 31 23 November 2009 at 5:25pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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'Until now' is rarely used in English - and when it is, it tends to be as a complete sentence, after a pause, for dramatic effect. 'Yet' is much more natural-sounding.
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| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6015 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 16 of 31 23 November 2009 at 8:23pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Well that's Denial and Resentment. In a moment you'll go through Bargaining, then onto Depression. Eventually, you'll reach Acceptance. ;-) It happens to us all. For me it's Spanish speaker-errors. I spend so much social time with Spanish people that my brain starts to accept what they say as normal... and sometimes I use non-native patterns in my responses to them. That's just how language works. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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