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Uniqueness of "until" in English | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| anamsc Triglot Senior Member Andorra Joined 6203 days ago 296 posts - 382 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, Catalan Studies: Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Written), French | Message 17 of 31 23 November 2009 at 9:03pm | IP Logged | |||||
Google gives millions of hits for "didn't do it until now", "didn't see it until now", "didn't find it until now", etc. Yes, the other variant is more common, and even to me it sounds better, but that doesn't mean that this one doesn't exist. Maybe you've been influenced by the Spanish structure, as it seems that you have been living in Spain for quite a while. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 Hencke Tetraglot Moderator Spain Joined 6894 days ago 2340 posts - 2444 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Finnish, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 18 of 31 23 November 2009 at 10:15pm | IP Logged | |||||
I might be in danger of being influenced by Spanish and I have even identified it happening in a couple of isolated cases. But I am pretty sure it's not the case for this expression. I was more concerned about an influence from Swedish if there was one. Let's have a go at Google then. I agree it can provide some interesting statistical data, even if it isn't always clear how to interpret the results. It can be tricky for English especially, considering that a very large proportion of everything out there is written by less than competent, or downright bungling and inept users of the language, such as the many non-native speakers. * "didn't find it until now" corresponds to the construction being discussed here. The others "do" and "see" can be valid as reference, but are not necessarily the same thing. From google.co.uk: "didn't do it until now" - 2.3 million "didn't see it until now" - 2.9 million "didn't find it until now" - 1.2 million * And now, limiting the search to "pages from the UK": "didn't do it until now" - 3 hits "didn't see it until now" - 39,400 hits "didn't find it until now" - 8 hits * A drop from over a million to a mere 8 hits is a dramatic statistical difference indeed. I'm not sure what the explanation is but it doesn't look like it's anything to do with an influence from Spanish. Possibly there's a UK/US issue with this. Edited by Hencke on 23 November 2009 at 10:29pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5866 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 19 of 31 23 November 2009 at 11:02pm | IP Logged | |||||
'Until now' is frequently used in English, in conversation and in print. Very common. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| anamsc Triglot Senior Member Andorra Joined 6203 days ago 296 posts - 382 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Catalan Studies: Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Written), French | Message 20 of 31 23 November 2009 at 11:47pm | IP Logged | |||||
Limiting to pages in the US gives 984,000 hits for "didn't find it until now". Maybe it is a UK-US difference, or maybe you are influenced by your native Swedish, I don't know. However, I think it's kind of unreasonable for you to suggest that other native English speakers and I, as well as the population of contributors to the internet, are all wrong because you can trust your "inner ear". Edited by anamsc on 23 November 2009 at 11:49pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Hencke Tetraglot Moderator Spain Joined 6894 days ago 2340 posts - 2444 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Finnish, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 21 of 31 24 November 2009 at 12:38am | IP Logged | |||||
I think that's an unreasonable interpretation of what I wrote. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5838 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 22 of 31 24 November 2009 at 1:37am | IP Logged | |||||
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I live in the UK and am a very near native speaker of English (UK)
I take a fairly liberal view on grammar though - I don't want to be the foreigner who sounds like a grammar book when she speaks. That seems to irritate native speakers even more than making the odd mistake. To the point: "The scientists didn't find a solution until now" I wouldn't say that, or at least not write it. Some little warning bell goes off, but I don't know why. I would say "The scientists only just found a solution" or "The scientists only recently found a solution. "The scientists weren't able to find a solution for many years but recently one was discovered" Something like that. I am also careful about shortening words. In a text were I was talking about scientists and research I probly wouldn't write "didn't" but "did not". There are lots of minor grammatical differences between how Americans / Brits speak. Nothing worth getting dramatic about as far as I am concerned.. In Britain it's a good idea to avoid "American grammar" though, unless one actually is an American. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5866 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 23 of 31 24 November 2009 at 2:35am | IP Logged | |||||
or "probly"! Please forgive me; I couldn't resist. It was "probably" just a typo. Or perhaps you were being too "careful about shortening words" or didn't want to "sound like a grammar book". Edited by tommus on 24 November 2009 at 2:49am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sprachjunge Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 7165 days ago 368 posts - 548 votes Speaks: English*, GermanC2 Studies: Spanish, Russian | Message 24 of 31 24 November 2009 at 8:14am | IP Logged | |||||
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"The scientists didn't find a solution until now." Wow, upon reading the reactions of those who have learned English as a foreign language compared to those of some of the native speakers, I have to say that I'm worried about the future of America...if we can't even master our own language, then there's really no hope. :) Sorry Parasitius, but I have to agree with Captain Haddock, Hencke, and Cordelia, among others. (And my respect for the last two's English prowess has impossibly gone up by 10 points, even though I had long ago given them 100/100.)
If I may talk in the parlance of my countrymen/women for a moment: Lol but like, doesn't it totally sound wrong? I tease. :) Nonetheless, common in usage, perhaps, but something you would never intentionally write in a paper and turn in as correct, or recommend that an English learner say? If it still sounds correct--and we've all been there, don't worry--methinks you should quietly keep up with your Oates as you sally forth into the world of Kafka or Saramago. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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