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Subjunctive in the Romance languages | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4669 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes  Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 17 of 25 01 May 2014 at 6:47pm | IP Logged | ||
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You can find ''Talvez ele vai'' in spoken Brazilian Portuguese too,
but it's not considered correct by most grammarians. The only grammar which accepts this usage is ''Glossário de dificuldades Sintáticas.'' by Zélio dos Santos Jota. published by Ed. Fundo de Cultura. He states in his manual: 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4291 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 18 of 25 01 May 2014 at 9:01pm | IP Logged | ||
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There are some constructions that are optional with the subjunctive depending on how
likely the speaker thinks it is, but most are "non-negotiables", i.e. they must take the subjunctive regardless of whether the speaker thinks that it is likely or not. If they are optional, if the speaker feels for xample, 80% sure, then they can use the indicative, if something like 20% sure (doubtful), then the subjunctive. I always learnt «talvez» in Portuguese, at least European Portuguese, to be non-negotiable, but I am unsure about how Brazilians might differ in this construction, i.e. Talvez venha (Maybe he might come, not very sure--subjunctive) Talvez venha (Most likely he would come, but non-negotiable, the subjunctive anyway) The optional constructions seem to occur more often in Spanish; a few: Quizás prepare la cena (I might cook dinner, but I am undecided--subjunctive) Quizás preparo la cena (I am fairly sure that I shall cook dinner--indicative) Seguramente llueva (It might rain, but really no idea--subjunctive) Seguramente llueve (Grey clouds to be seen in all directions--indicative) Posiblemente hagamos las compras (No one is committed to go shopping-- subjunctive) Posiblemente hacemos las compras (Everyone seems to be getting ready to go out-- indicative) However, the nonnegoatiables: Es posible que venga is the only choice regardless of how sure the speaker is; Es posible que viene would be totally wrong, even if the speaker is 99% sure. Same with Portuguese «É possível que venha» In Portuguese, like Spanish, the only option for the indicative in subordinated clauses preceded by "que" are those of surity: É seguro/certo/verdade/sem dúvida que mandate the indicative since they are surities. Their negative equivalents mandate the subjunctive. É melhor/bom/pior/mau/possível and others aforementioned require the subjunctive and are non-negotiable. An indicative with the optional construction might also indicate that the speaker wants it to be true: Tal vez nos toca la lotería (We might win the lottery, surely, it shall happen) Tal vez nos toque la lotería (We might win the lottery I hope, but all of our numbers are wrong, and are probably not even get a free ticket) One that can be used for example, during an national or international chess team event: Posiblemente nuestro compañero gana la partida (Has a good advantage, cannot lose or draw this, or should not) Posiblemente nuestro compañero gane la partida (S/he just blundered a piece, position is almost busted, but maybe might have some luck hopefully) It must be mentioned, that there are uses of the indicative where it fits into neither category: Aunque llueve, me voy "Although it rains, I am off"; Since this is a fact, it takes the indicative Aunque lleuva, me voy "Even though it might rain, I am off However: Aunque me lo dijeses, no lo tendré en cuenta could have two meanings: "Although you might have told me, I shall not keep it in mind" which could indicate doubt, but also could be, "Although you told me, I shall not keep it in mind" which is fact, but «aunque» requires the subjunctive when the following clause is something that has been repeated in the past, even if it has happened, i.e. "Although you told me in the past, I shall not keep it in mind" is another possible meaning. This extends to «a pesar de que», «bien que», etc., although in the others, the subjunctive is non-negotiable: «bem que», «bien que», «benche» in PT/FR/IT the subjunctive follows always. Edited by 1e4e6 on 02 May 2014 at 12:36am 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4669 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 19 of 25 02 May 2014 at 12:35am | IP Logged | ||
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In Brazilian Portuguese, É bom (or another adjective) + subjunctive is not the preferred form:
''É bom você ter vindo!'' ( 221,000 hits on Google ) ''Que bom que você veio! ''(599,000 hits on Google ) both are much more frequent than ''É bom que você tenha vindo'' (which is comparatively rare -only 10 hits on Google ). (While the absolute number of Google hits is not important, ratios / relative preferences are). PS I just asked a native speaker of B.P and to her ''É bom que você tenha vindo'' sounded like a snarky comment rather than a neutral expression, as in ''good for you''. Edited by Medulin on 02 May 2014 at 12:39am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 20 of 25 06 May 2014 at 3:15pm | IP Logged | ||
I'm in awe of the amount of work that went into this post and the many other contributions on this rather intractable subject of the subjunctive in the Romance languages. I can't comment on Spanish or Portuguese but French is up my alley. A couple of points. In modern spoken French, only the present subjunctive is used. Also those complex conjugations have totally disappeared or are used in very special circumstances, i.e. making fun of a pretentious person. In written French, the imperfect of the subjunctive can be found but I think it is giving way to the present. Indeed, the whole thing reminds me of the passé simple that has disappeared from spoken French but is to be found in the written language. I don't know about the other languages, but there is considerable debate in French linguistics about the exact role of the subjunctive. For some observers, it is purely a grammatical constraint to be used in certain word contexts and has no intrinsic meaning. This idea of the subjunctive being associated with doubt, hope, wishes, desires, uncertainty, etc. is rather shaky and does not really explain why the subjunctive is used. The real reason the subjunctive is used is that by convention certain words or grammatical constructions are said to require the subjunctive. It's just an arbitrary rule. For example, Je crois que,,, 'I believe that...' does not take the subjunctive but je ne crois pas que 'I don't believe that...' does take the subjunctive. Fine. But why does je ne pense pas que..."I don't think that..." not take the subjunctive? What is it the difference between "believe' and "think"? Similarly, we can ask why did all those complex subjunctive forms disappear if there was some distinction of meaning in the various forms. How can the present subjunctive replace all the other forms unless the subjunctive is just some kind of catch-all category without any specific meaning? The other school of thought, which I won't elaborate in detail, says that the subjunctive corresponds to some intellectual or cognitive processes. We can therefore convey precise nuances of meaning through proper use of the subjunctive. In this regard, it should be pointed out that in French, and certainly in Spanish, the subjunctive mood is closely linked to the imperative mood. Certain conjugated forms are identical, and we have the que + present subjunctive construction for giving orders. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 21 of 25 07 May 2014 at 1:05am | IP Logged | ||
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Well I've been reading the relevant parts of a book about Romance philology and it says that in Latin, the subjunctive almost completely lost its semantic purpose and became a purely grammatical/syntactical tool. But in the modern Romance languages it got this semantic use back, as it was replaced by the indicative in most contexts where the predicate denotes a real fact. It says that at least sometimes there's a semantic opposition depending on the degree of confidence, like the Spanish "creo que viene" vs "creo que venga" or in Italian "credo che viene"/"credo che venga".
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| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 22 of 25 07 May 2014 at 4:05pm | IP Logged | ||
I think this is correct. The subjunctive can render semantic nuances and is often more than a syntactic constraint. But it is interesting to note that for most French verbs there is no difference in pronunciation between the indicative and the present subjunctive with certain pronouns. For example, here are subjunctives that sound exactly like their indicative counterparts: Il faut que je vous parle Il faut qu'elle courre Il faut que tu voies Il faut qu'ils partent As you can see, in certain cases the indicative and the subjunctive have exactly the same form. In other cases the form may differ but the pronunciation is the same. The conclusion is that maybe the subjunctive form is really not that distinctive after all. In the examples above, the really important part is the "il faut que..." Edited by s_allard on 07 May 2014 at 4:55pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4669 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 23 of 25 07 May 2014 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | ||
You may be right. Differences may be: a) between subjunctive and indicative: não acho que se trata disso (I don't think it's about that) ~ não acho que se trate disso (I don't think it could/would be about that) b) nuances of subjunctive: tomara que ela esteja aqui (wish including some possibility of realization) ~ tomara que ela estivesse aqui (wish with no possibility of realization) Edited by Medulin on 07 May 2014 at 7:50pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 24 of 25 07 May 2014 at 10:20pm | IP Logged | ||
I know that no creer in Spanish takes the subjunctive, but I'm curious as to the distinction between "creo que viene" and "creo que venga". Is the latter a way of saying that "I believe that he might come"? 1 person has voted this message useful |
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