|
 |
Object pronouns in Portuguese | ||
Tags: Portuguese | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| LanguagePhysics Newbie United States Joined 4147 days ago 34 posts - 43 votes Speaks: English* | Message 1 of 5 01 May 2014 at 2:05pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
In European Portuguese and Galician, which is arguably a Portuguese dialect, object pronouns generally come after the verb. How has this come about?
In Spanish and just about every other Romance language, the object pronoun comes before the verb, so European Portuguese seems to be an anomaly in this sense. In Spanish, the only situation in which an object pronoun is allowed after the verb is if it is attached to an infinitive. Even in Brazilian Portuguese, the object pronoun comes before the verb, perhaps as a direct influence from Spanish. How has the tendency for European Portuguese speakers to put the object pronoun after the verb emerged? Why does this not appear in Spanish? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4669 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes  Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 2 of 5 01 May 2014 at 6:26pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Not true. European Portuguese as well as formal written Brazilian Portuguese has a complex system of rules: there are cases when enclisis should be used, and there are cases when proclisis should be used (as with ''connecting words''). The system of 'connecting words'' is not inherent in native Brazilian speech. Brazilians have to learn rules by heart, at school, during grammar classes. Unlike in American English situation, grammar test of formal Portuguese grammar is required prior to applying for nicer job positions in Brazil (for native speakers), so it's a lucrative market that benefits from differences between normal spoken Brazilian Portuguese, and Portugal-based written language (formal written Brazilian Portuguese is based on 19th century European Portuguese, albeit with Brazilian spelling): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE5aXCQpkVE There are differences between formal E.P. and formal B.P too: in Portugal, o(s)/a(s) are favored before infinitives: para o ver, antes de o fazer in Brazil, -lo(s), -la(s) are used instead: para vê-lo, antes de fazê-lo In formal B.P. enclisis is many times overused, because as I said before, the concept of connecting words is not natural in Brazilian writing, so hypercorrections are common, and not considered incorrect: ''Lanço mão também de estudo em painel e em tendência para verificar se o processo variável ENCONTRA-SE em mudança na língua. '' (famous linguist Maria Cecilia Mollica in her thesis http://www.uel.br/revistas/uel/index.php/signum/article/view File/13041/12501)
standard in both Portugal and Brazil. In colloquial Brazilian Portuguese, strong ''pronouns'' (você, vocês, o senhor, a senhora, os senhores, and basilectallly all others) are still enclitic, only ME, LHE, TE, SE, NOS are proclitic: Ele nos viu = Ele viu a gente. = Ele viu nós (the last one is extremely informal/basilectal, used in rural settings or poorer neighborhoods) Eu te amo. = Eu amo você. = Eu amo tu. (the last one is dialectal, basilectal, heard in Rio and Recife). Me beija! = ''Beija eu!'' (dialectal, and expressive, for example used by Marisa Monte in her famous song). O, OS, A, AS are either discarded, or used with L-, so they are enclitic> -LO,-LOS, -LA, -LAS: Se você não convidar ela (spoken Brazilian) -> Se você não convidá-la (writen and sometimes spoken Brazilian) ---> Se você não a convidar (continental Portuguese, but rare in Brazil). --- Another complex issue is ''pronome solto entre dois verbos'' (which was considered incorrect in formal BP untill the 1970ies although it was extremely common in fine Brazilian writers; from 1990ies it has been accepted into the formal written standard, even manuals of style of famous newspapers (like Estadão or Folha) state ''hyphen is no longer needed in these cases'' Vou-te convidar (continental Portuguese, stress> Voute/convidar) -> Vou te convidar (Brazilian Portuguese, stress Vou/teconvidar) -> Vou convidar-te (formal in both). Não te vou convidar (neutral continental Portuguese) -> Não vou te convidar (neutral Brazilian Portuguese) -> Não vou convidar-te (formal in both). Não se poderia dizer (general Portuguese) -> Não poderia se dizer (used only in Brazil) -> Não poderia dizer-se (formal in both). (Many Brazilians who write Pode-se dizer also write Poderia-se dizer which is incorrect [it should be Poder-se-ia dizer], by writing à brasileira> Pode se dizer, one makes no mistakes because both Pode se dizer and Poderia se dizer are written correctly according to modern Brazilian grammar). Edited by Medulin on 01 May 2014 at 6:41pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4291 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 3 of 5 01 May 2014 at 11:57pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
I believe that Medieval Spanish had the Portuguese word-order with the verb followed by
object and reflexive pronouns, but I am unsure exactly when this practise was lost. One could say, Acuéstome instead of Me acuesto, and likewise probably something like, Dánnoslo instead of Nos lo dan. This word-order pervades the imperative in Spanish however: ¡Dámelo!. In Portuguese, I think that Brazilian Portuguese develops like Spanish with pre-clitic pronoun placement: Me o disseram instead of Disseram-mo. In PT-EU, it is still possible to use hyphenated versions for both single and double object pronouns with the verb stem split for the future and conditional tenses: Comprar-vo-lo-ei, I shall buy it for you Escrever-lho-am, They shall write it for him Preparar-no-la-eis, You shall prepare it for us 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| LanguagePhysics Newbie United States Joined 4147 days ago 34 posts - 43 votes Speaks: English* | Message 4 of 5 02 May 2014 at 2:31pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
What do you mean by connecting words and why are they not inherent to native Brazilian speech?
It seems that in formal Brazilian Portuguese, the rule is to put the object pronoun before the verb, as in Spanish. When you say Brazilians overuse enclisis in formal language, can you give some examples of where they would use enclisis in cases they should technically use proclisis?
As far as I am aware, in European Portuguese those pronouns tend to be enclitic, with some exceptions. I find it strange that in Brazilian Portuguese they are proclitic, as in Spanish. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4669 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 5 of 5 02 May 2014 at 9:31pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
But there are many differences:
''Me siga! vs Sígame! ''Por te amar'' vs ''Por amarte'' ''Te ver e não te querer é improvável, impossível'' vs ''Verte y no quererte es improbable, imposible.'' ''Sei que vou te amar'' vs ''Sé que voy a amarte'' / ''Sé que te voy a amar'' ''Vende-se'' vs ''Se vende'' ''Tinha/havia nos visto'' vs ''Nos había visto''. One can also notice similarities with Italian (me defenda! = mi difenda! ) and French (se reunir = se réunir). So, overall, the spoken Brazilian Portuguese is different than any other Romance language when it comes to ''colocação pronominal'', it has some things in common with formal written Brazilian Portuguese and Continental Portuguese, some things in common with Spanish, some with French and Italian, and some unique features (like ''Não sei se vou te amar'', ''Nos convidem mais cedo por favor''). ''Se você seguir ela / Se você segui-la'' are pretty genuine too. Edited by Medulin on 02 May 2014 at 9:57pm 3 persons have voted this message useful |
If you wish to post a reply to this topic you must first login. If you are not already registered you must first register
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
