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Pronominal Adverbs in English | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4295 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes  Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 1 of 15 14 May 2014 at 1:07am | IP Logged | ||
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From having studied Dutch for over the past year, I realised the almost mandatory usage
of pronomial adverbs there, which caused me to renew using them in English. But I was unsure if they could be used in the same manner and syntax. I know that to construct them in English, one simply places the preposition connected to the end of a prepositionalised demonstrative or definite pronoun, with "this/that/it" changed into "here/there/there" i.e. "in this" -> "herein", "with that" -> "therewith", "without it" -> "therewithout", but are these, as well as the other pronomial adverbs used in the exact same manner like in Dutch? For example, can I technically (at least in terms of grammatical rules) split the pronomial adverbs in English, Are you arriving with the car? --Yes, I am arriving with it./Yes, I am arriving therewith./Yes, I am there arriving with.† †c.f., Ja, er kom ik mee. Does the train go thither? (Does the train go theretowards?) --Yes, it goes thereto./Yes, there it goes to.† †c.f., Ja, daar gaat hij naartoe./Ja, hij gaat daarnaartoe. Do you travel from home often? --Yes, I travel from there often./Yes, I travel thence often./Yes, I travel therefrom often./Yes, there travel I often from.† †c.f., Ja, daar reis ik vaak vandaan./Ja, ik reis vaak daarvadaan. Edited by 1e4e6 on 16 May 2014 at 12:04am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| ScottScheule Diglot Senior Member United States scheule.blogspot.com Joined 5233 days ago 645 posts - 1176 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Latin, Hungarian, Biblical Hebrew, Old English, Russian, Swedish, German, Italian, French | Message 2 of 15 15 May 2014 at 3:46pm | IP Logged | ||
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Are you a native English speaker? Most of those constructions either sound extremely archaic or flat out wrong.
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| AlexTG Diglot Senior Member Australia Joined 4643 days ago 178 posts - 354 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Latin, German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 3 of 15 15 May 2014 at 4:03pm | IP Logged | ||
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Well in regards to the fundamental rules of English word order, it would seem to depart therefrom.
Edit: also, just noticed, all your examples end in prepositions so (technically) definitely not grammatical. Edited by AlexTG on 15 May 2014 at 4:10pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Dragon27 Diglot Groupie Russian Federation Joined 4246 days ago 41 posts - 71 votes Speaks: Russian*, English | Message 4 of 15 15 May 2014 at 4:56pm | IP Logged | ||
Why not? Isn't that a myth (that a sentence shouldn't end with a preposition)? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tastyonions Triglot Senior Member United States goo.gl/UIdChYRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4670 days ago 1044 posts - 1823 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 5 of 15 15 May 2014 at 5:26pm | IP Logged | ||
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Ending with a preposition is perfectly fine.
"I didn't know what country he was from." On the other hand, the examples in the original post sound really odd to me. Even the last two example questions sound a bit strange. And the only place I see "herein" and "therewith" used is in legal documents... Edited by tastyonions on 15 May 2014 at 5:28pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6708 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 6 of 15 15 May 2014 at 9:08pm | IP Logged | ||
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It is not impossible to have a pronominal adverb at the end of a sentence ("the train definitely goes there") - but 1e4e6 just took a special pleasure in quoting some very oldfashioned words, which would look weird in any position. Which is a good reason to start using them again. But English isn't keen on marking direction versus location, contrary to for instance Danish where we either say "gå derhen" (direction) or "gå derhenne" (place"). The Russians express this through the choice of different verbs.
And of course prepositions are also possible at the end of sentences - though you may have to fight off the few remaining purists who claim that they aren't allowed there. Edited by Iversen on 15 May 2014 at 9:11pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4295 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 7 of 15 15 May 2014 at 9:17pm | IP Logged | ||
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I am indeed a native Anglophone--I which that I were not, since, as I say, then people
would stop switching to English with me, but that is a differnet topic. Anyway, the pronomial adverb is not a preposition in its pure sense, so it can be placed at the end of sentences. Placing the pure preposition, i.e. "with" instead of "therewith" sounds quite bad in writing, especially in formal writing like reports, documents, etc. But what I meant was that I was using the Dutch word order with pronomial adverbs after seeing that there is actually a massive list of English pronomial adverbs, in fact 65 listed on the page, but I was wondering about the Germanic pronomial adverb split like in Dutch and German, viz., NL: Bent u klaar met dit verslag? --Ja, ik ben klaar hiermee, mijnheer (unsplit pronomial adverb) or --Ja, ik ben hier klaar mee, mijnheer EN: Are you finished with the report? --Yes, I am finished herewith, Sir (My Heer) (unsplit) or Yes, I am here finished with, Sir (My Heer) (split) Actually in all forms of English, from extremely formal to extremely colloquial, I have heard "from hereonin", which looks like a sign of a split pronomial adverb, which if combined might be very long with four components, "herefromonin", which could be simplified to "henceonin" since "herefrom" means "hence", but I am unsure exactly what that construction is, i.e. "From hereonin the weather is going to be really cold." Edited by 1e4e6 on 15 May 2014 at 10:54pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4712 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 8 of 15 15 May 2014 at 9:21pm | IP Logged | ||
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Ik ben klaar hiermee sounds a bit weird and definitely has different connotations ("I am
done with this, there is nothing more to say, get lost now will you). Mijnheer is extremely formal and I wouldn't say it unless in jest or at an official reception - otherwise, I would use "meneer". 1 person has voted this message useful |
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