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"will" and "shall" in English.. | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4291 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes  Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 9 of 18 22 May 2014 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I always use shall for future: "Shall you ring me next week?", "Shall we meet at ___
Restaurant next week/" --"Yes, we shall". "Shall" reminds me of the original as used in other Germanic languages, "zal" in Dutch, "skal" in Danish and Norwegian, "skall" in Swedish, etc. Of course now "will" is used for "shall", but if I am not mistaken, "will" originally means "want" before its incorporation into a substitute for "shall", i.e. "Will you (Willst thou) go with me?" meaning, "Do you want to go with me?", or "What will you (willst thou) for your (thy)birthday?", viz., "What do you want for your birthday?" "Edit": My mother just asked me, "Where shall we eat lunch tomorrow?" a few minutes ago, and I said, "Nandos". "Shall" is definitely not archaic nor relegated to non- usage, and I must ddd that I am not from a posh family or anything... Edited by 1e4e6 on 22 May 2014 at 9:08pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Mohave Senior Member United States justpaste.it/Mohave1 Joined 4008 days ago 291 posts - 444 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 10 of 18 22 May 2014 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | |||||
Agree with the above by James29 and tastyonions. You rarely hear "shall or shall not" n the US in everyday language. Where I most often see it used is in governmental/legislative or contractual language where it generally means something is mandatory and/or prohibitive depending on the usage. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7157 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 11 of 18 22 May 2014 at 9:46pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Whenever I encounter “shall” for “will”, 3 things come to mind in decreasing prominence:
1) “shall” occurs more often in legalistic or more officious registers in print here. The user may be either following some set phrase from those registers or at worst show a certain affectation to indicate his/her seriousness. 2) It could also reflect a Britishism as 1e4e6 implies. “Shall you call me next week?” for “Will you call me next week?” (especially in non-officious contexts) is not common on this side of the pond. 3) “shall” is supposed to be used for the 1st person singular and plural (although I don't perceive it to be ungrammatical when coming upon things such as “you shan’t” or “they shall not”). None of these however affect my perception of the fixed phrases “shall we go?” and “shall we dance?”. “Will we go?” or “Will we dance?” are grammatical but come off as unidiomatic. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4669 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 12 of 18 22 May 2014 at 10:36pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Shall we use shall?
-No, we shan't! or -Thou shalt not! MW's Learner's Dictionary labels all uses of SHALL as ''formal'': http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/shall According to (pre WW2) traditional grammar of English: expressing futurity: I shall, you will, he/she/it will, we shall, you will, they will expressing obligation: I will, you shall, he/she/it shall, we will, you shall, they shall conditional form: I should, you would, he/she/it would, we should, you would, they would From Wiki: ''An illustration of the supposed contrast between shall and will (when the prescriptive rule is adhered to) appeared in the 19th century,[4] and has been repeated in the 20th century[5] and in the 21st:[6] I shall drown; no one will save me! (expresses the expectation of drowning, simple expression of future occurrence) I will drown; no one shall save me! (expresses suicidal intent: first-person will for desire, third-person shall for "command")'' The chief use of shall in questions is with a first person subject (I or we), to make offers and suggestions, or request suggestions or instructions: Shall I open a window? Shall we dance? Where shall we go today? What shall I do next? This is common in the UK and other parts of the English-speaking world; it is also found in the United States, but there SHOULD is often a less marked alternative. Normally the use of WILL in such questions would change the meaning to a simple request for information: "Shall I play goalkeeper?" is an offer or suggestion, while "Will I play goalkeeper?" is just a question about the expected future situation. However for many speakers in the United States, the WILL form can also be used as an offer (in which case "Am I going to play goalkeeper?" can be used to indicate unambiguously a pure request for information).'' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shall_and_will Edited by Medulin on 22 May 2014 at 10:58pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4291 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 13 of 18 22 May 2014 at 11:25pm | IP Logged | |||||
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"Shall" is not only for commands, one often hears e.g., a mother scolding her children,
"Will you just stop with your noise?", or a friend to another, "Will you just shut up?" where "shall" is not used for such an angry command, viz., "Shall you just shut up?" maybe not, but, "Shall you dine with me?" used not as a command, but as a true question, meaning not a rhetorical or årsehole-type question. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Stolan Senior Member United States Joined 4033 days ago 274 posts - 368 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Thai, Lowland Scots Studies: Arabic (classical), Cantonese | Message 14 of 18 23 May 2014 at 3:00am | IP Logged | |||||
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ahhh, simplification of English grammar post ww2...whose fault is this?!
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4669 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 15 of 18 23 May 2014 at 4:09am | IP Logged | |||||
Let's blame it on Hollywood ;) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4623 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 16 of 18 23 May 2014 at 1:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
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"Shall" is rarely heard in Scotland. It feels awkward to use it and I use "I will" (or "I'll") instead.
The only real exception I can think of is a polite request intended to be carried out there and then. Shall we dance? Edited by beano on 23 May 2014 at 1:52pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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