|
 |
Is C2 possible without a tutor ? | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5433 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 89 of 144 18 December 2014 at 3:33pm | IP Logged | |||||
I share beano's skepticism here. I've just finished an hour working with my tutor on, among other things, a newspaper article on an aspect of the Spanish legal system. This was not an article for legal professionals. It was more for the general public and didn't contain too many complicated technical words. Still, my Mexican tutor was not familiar with certain terms of the Spanish judiciary. In my opinion, this sort of non-fiction newspaper writing corresponds to what would be expected of a C2 candidate for comprehension. I doubt that this level of writing would be required of a candidate. Neither would one be expected to talk like this. I assume one should be simply able to talk about the article in an articulate manner. I think we shouldn't get too hung up on the university bias of the C2 tests. Nowhere is it said that one should have a certain number of years of university education. Yes, you have to be literate, but you don't really have to know what an alexandrine is in French poetry. In fact, you don't have to know much about poetry in general. The key thing here is that you have to be able to talk well about anything, in a way that a native speaker would. If you have to skirt around certain topics or admit technical ignorance, that's not a real problem if you can do that well in the language. What you don't want to do is hesitate, lose your way, be unable to complete your sentences properly, admit that you don't understand what the examiner is saying and make horrible mistakes. Edited by s_allard on 18 December 2014 at 3:34pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4536 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 90 of 144 18 December 2014 at 3:48pm | IP Logged | |||||
Well the general definition on the Goethe Institute website for the C2 examination is:
This is obviously quite a different level than the C1 exam:
Perhaps the C2 exams are a lot easier than they sound, but the definition at least does sound like something you would expect from someone at about the level of a first year university student - at least that's about the time I would imagine I would have passed a C2 exam in my own L1. Edited by patrickwilken on 18 December 2014 at 3:50pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| DaraghM Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6154 days ago 1947 posts - 2923 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Russian, Hungarian | Message 91 of 144 18 December 2014 at 3:56pm | IP Logged | |||||
|
Just looked at a sample C2 paper.
https://delfdalf.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/Unterlagen/Kapitel _1.6/C2/new_uploads/c2_example2_dalf_candidat.pdf I may have overestimated the language ability required, as the texts seem very easy to follow. I wouldn’t see myself as anywhere near C2. Then again, it’s about language as a continuously changing entity, almost like a discussion we would have here. It’s hard to tell at what level you're expected to write though. Edited by DaraghM on 18 December 2014 at 3:56pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5433 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 92 of 144 18 December 2014 at 4:12pm | IP Logged | |||||
|
I think that the reason many of us are making a mountain out of the requirements of something like
the C-level exams is that we often don't have much real experience systematically practicing our target language at a high level unless we are in the country. All of this seems intimidating. This is a very serious problem because practice is what makes perfect, if that needs to be said. How many of us write a couple of sentences a day in our target language? How can you expect to write a two-page essay well if you haven't written at least 50 or 100 pages with external correction? It's a simple as that. The plain truth is that the vast majority of independent learners never do this sort of thing. It's simply too artificial and requires great discipline. This is why a good class is valuable. We have a structure that forces us to produce every week. You could do this with a tutor. I write a page a week in Spanish, and for me it's not enough; I'm ramping up to three pages a week because it is actually getting easier. If I had to write a one-page letter in Spanish today, it wouldn't be much of a problem because I have done nearly 30 so far. It's the same thing about high-level speaking. If you don't rehearse or practice regularly, you are setting yourself up for failure. You're bound to trip over those long multi-syllable words if you have never repeated them aloud a few times. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6585 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 93 of 144 18 December 2014 at 6:17pm | IP Logged | |||||
Also, it's not something that's necessary for the majority of independent learners. I don't currently strive for C2 in any of my languages. I'd find it difficult to abandon my other languages and the accumulation of new ones to the degree that this would demand. I wouldn't even know what language to pick. If I moved to another country, then yes, I'd probably start working seriously on mastering the language (except for Norwegian!), but other than that, I wouldn't even know what language to pick. Usually, I'm satisfied with effortless reading and being able to watch movies and that's it. The vast majority of language learners stop at "good enough" for whatever their purposes are. For immigrants, it's usually being able to get around and live your life in-country. Making some grammatical mistakes and not being able to discuss high literature is not a problem. I think the vast majority of language learners don't reach C2 because they're not trying to, simple as that. 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6600 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 94 of 144 18 December 2014 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | |||||
I mostly agree with you :) I just think that the grammar core (and also pronunciation and fluency) is generally a far less stable thing for non-natives. Even in our native language we can sometimes say things that sound strange to our own ears. So imo it gets far less comparable if the secondary native language is involved. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5433 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 95 of 144 18 December 2014 at 8:01pm | IP Logged | |||||
|
I agree that most independent language learners are neither interested in C2-level performance nor
actual certification. Neither do independent learners get very far. I read somewhere around here that the drop-out rate for people who buy language-learning packages is around 99%. That may be an exaggeration but it is very high. That said, there are some people who do pursue C2-level certification. I imagine that in some cases it may be mandatory for some kinds of jobs. Something liking becoming a language teacher, perhaps. And then there are those slightly looney people who pursue this as some symbol of outstanding achievement in language performance. Something akin to climbing a mountain because it is there. For those people who have no interest in this sort of thing, there is probably little to learn in this thread. But I do believe that even if one is not actually interested in pursuing certification, it can be interesting to discuss ideas on how to achieve good language performance. And this is probably what brings all of us together. We all want to speak our languages well. We may recognize our limitations in time and funds but none of us, I think, likes to speak a language poorly. It's just that we accept that in this world we have to settle for what we've got. This applies particularly to the question at hand of tutoring. The only reason for spending good money on tutoring is the idea that this will make a significant difference in one's performance, whether this is for a job-related test or just to take one's skill level higher for pure self-esteem. I'm of the school of thought that if I'm going to speak a language, I want to speak it well. How well is difficult to define but let's say that I want to enjoy speaking the language, something that I can't do if I feel I'm murdering the grammar and hurting people's ears. I don't ask for perfection; it's too late for that, but I can still make an effort, with or without tutoring, to improve. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| robarb Nonaglot Senior Member United States languagenpluson Joined 5062 days ago 361 posts - 921 votes Speaks: Portuguese, English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, French Studies: Mandarin, Danish, Russian, Norwegian, Cantonese, Japanese, Korean, Polish, Greek, Latin, Nepali, Modern Hebrew | Message 96 of 144 19 December 2014 at 4:35am | IP Logged | |||||
|
I wonder how many learners get to the point where they speak and understand at a C2-worthy level, but would be
unable to pass an exam because they have absolutely no practice writing an essay. 1 person has voted this message useful |
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
