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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| LaughingChimp Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4698 days ago 346 posts - 594 votes  Speaks: Czech* | Message 41 of 64 09 February 2012 at 11:39pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
You are seriously underestimating it's complexity. For most languages there are no sources for absolutely everything, not even in linguistic journals, and even if there were, the amount of information would be too overwhelming to master by conscious practice. Additionally, many things (like which sounds are phonemes and which sounds are mere allophones) are often a matter of interpretation and highly subjective. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Balliballi Groupie Korea, SouthRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4691 days ago 70 posts - 115 votes Studies: Korean | Message 42 of 64 10 February 2012 at 12:01am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I might be able to pronounce individual words correctly, with a 'native-like accent', but reading a sentence with the right accent takes a lot more work. For one thing, I cannot read Korean sentences at a speed high enough to add the correct intonation. I pause for a while between words. For that matter, I don't read individual words quickly either. (I find Hangeul difficult to read because of the way the characters are put together to make a word. I much prefer the Latin alphabet.) My reading speed will improve as I read more. But in order to read more, I need to understand more vocabulary and grammar. Edited by Balliballi on 10 February 2012 at 12:11am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5765 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 43 of 64 10 February 2012 at 12:52am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
If you don't do this already, try repeating every sentence you find particularly hard until you're satisfied with it or can't seem to improve. That way I improve much more quickly than when I simply read out longer passages. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5225 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 44 of 64 10 February 2012 at 1:45am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Edit: I delayed replying to your long post to try and make some minimally meaningful comments.
I really hope to be wrong about how much of your time and effort may go to waste, too. However, that has a great degree of inherent variability and uncertainty in itself so if I were you I wouldn't really worry about my naysaying, because it can be no big deal even if I'm right :) Some advice for the future concerning your experimentation, though: -Always question ideas coming from the outside, no matter how good they seem. Really good ideas will always resist critical analysis. -Never reject an idea without some degree of scrutiny. Everything can be useful. -Try to hold as few beliefs as possible -- just try things and judge from their outcome, there's no point in deluding yourself. If something doesn't work it may be because you did it wrong; if you try it 10 different ways and it still won't work, it's probably because the idea had such a hold on you that you were operating on faith and not facts. Stay real and double check everything if time allows. WRT to concrete beliefs you seem to hold (like learning like a child, etc.) -- they've all probably been gone over like a thousand times before. Just search a bit the site and see what others had to say about it. Many a time other people's reflections spare us lamentations. That's basically it. Sorry I can't be much more specific about your lengthy post -- take that as a sign that you're already doing a whole bunch of stuff right, and remember that the most important thing of all is to keep working. Original post:
Maybe not that much. As LChimp said, if you got all the 'building blocks' right, putting them together better and more quickly is just a matter of practice. After that you can focus more on prosody. Remember: the most important factor to ensure you get something right is knowing what to aim for. If you know what to do with your intonation and when to do it, it is just a matter of time and practice until you can spot the differences between native speech and replicate it more accurately. Try it with shorter segments first, like Bao just said.
Tough luck ;) IIRC Hangul was designed so as to give visual clues on how every letter is pronounced. Maybe you want to check that out and see if it helps you out.
It's possible. Any field can be extended as much as experts with too much free time on their hands may want to.
The real question is, how much of it is really useful? It just depends on you -- nothing if you only aim to functional knowledge, or 90+% if you intend to be a (good) philologist. Serious language learners should lie somewhere in between. As theory goes, all I ever studied formally amounts to maybe 10 pages -- that was at high school and I overlooked its importance then because I had no practical use for it. However, when the time came I realized I could use that as a base to understand and attack phonetics in any new language from day 1, instead of limping until everything falls into place (which may not happen spontaneously -- my case with English), so it was good theory and it has been sufficient for me so far. I think what Korean learners need (as phonology goes) may not be much more than a Korean version of this or this, along with some general theory covering basic phenomena, terminology, and systematization.
Whether two different sounds make a difference in meaning isn't subjective at all -- it depends on the TL. Anyway, whenever there's something not firmly established, I'd rather work first on what is. Edited by mrwarper on 11 February 2012 at 5:20am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| LaughingChimp Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4698 days ago 346 posts - 594 votes Speaks: Czech* | Message 45 of 64 10 February 2012 at 2:02am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
What are you talking about??? I have never said that and I disagree - pronouncing whole sentences is more difficult than pronouncing single words.
Phonology is more than just phonemes that ocur in the language.
Provided that you can find words that differ in one single sound only. Often the words differ in both vowels and consonant for example, so it may be difficult to decide whether the difference is in the vowel or the consonant. Like in mandarin chinese, the q/j/x sounds could be equally well allophones of c/z/s, ch/zh/sh or k/g/h or they could be separate sounds and the vowels could be allophones. Edited by LaughingChimp on 10 February 2012 at 2:03am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5225 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 46 of 64 10 February 2012 at 2:33am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
You said that it's better to master phonology (and prosody) first because those are the building blocks that make up the rest of the language. I was agreeing on that and saying that's a logical step before going for sentences -- now you disagree? I don't think so. You should have read my post more carefully before jumping, methinks. Every post of mine you replied to, actually. Frankly, it is a bit tiresome to have to go like this every single time.
And again I didn't say to the contrary. Next time you may want to slow down your reading so you don't skip words like "theory", "phenomena", "systematization", "need" and "may" (how are your modal verbs BTW? :)
Which is when it makes sense to start debating if different sounds are allophones to be mapped to the same phoneme, or different phonemes altogether. 'Night. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| LaughingChimp Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4698 days ago 346 posts - 594 votes Speaks: Czech* | Message 47 of 64 10 February 2012 at 2:59am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
That's not what you said and it does not make any sense.
Mybe you should use less vague words and write more clearly.
Which is when it makes sense to start debating if different sounds are allophones to be mapped to the same phoneme, or different phonemes altogether.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5225 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 48 of 64 10 February 2012 at 11:07am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Most people will want to skip this argument...
Post #25:
Post #44:
-- Back to present:
It is what I said; you didn't understand ≠doesn't make sense. If "fundamental parts" is not nearly the same thing as "building blocks", perhaps you can explain the difference if that's so important now.
Mybe you could show me how I should have written that more clearly. What are the vague words?
I'll bite one last time. If you bring into question words that differ in more than one sound, distinguishing between allophones and different phonemes becomes a moot question. Edited by mrwarper on 10 February 2012 at 11:16am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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