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Reading is perfect, but inefficient | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5765 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes  Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 33 of 56 14 September 2013 at 1:18am | IP Logged | ||
I beg to differ. (This phrase, I can assure you, is one I learnt from extensive exposure.) You made several assumptions, one of them being that a student should be capable of knowing when they know a pattern perfectly, or that indeed it is possible to know a pattern perfectly; the other one being that once such a degree of perfection is attained, language skills are protected from attrition. And by stating that in order to achieve that natural protection, one has to perfect one's knowledge of that pattern first, you already have a nice explanation for any case where language attrition might happen: The learner did not learn the pattern well enough. Now, I have news. People can lose their native language. If there's anything that might resemble a 'perfect knowledge' of a pattern or word, what else might it be than your knowledge of your native language? Yet, especially when a person has little opportunity to use their native language, when they are discouraged to use it because they must learn a new language quickly, or because their first language might cause them distress because they had to migrate in a difficult situation - in such cases people might find their first language deteriorates much faster than they ever expected it to. And, of course, second languages are much more vulnerable than one's first language. This happens much more quickly to active skills than to passive skills, but even passive skills can become rusty with disuse. That rustiness shows itself less in the actual level of comprehension, and more in the effort one needs to make to comprehend, as our brains need to actively suppress the dominant language in order to parse a weaker language correctly. Reading extensively might not teach you many new words and patterns when you're not the type to learn from educated guesses being proven correct, but it certainly can train you to become more efficient at parsing target language text, which should make it easier for you to read in the language when you need to, even when your currently dominent language is a different one and you're actually quite tired already. As for language attrition, if you don't use a certain skill you will lose it sooner or later. If you don't speak, reading might slow down your rate of attrition but it won't protect your oral skills. There has already been said much about low frequency vocabulary. I'd like to mention again that rather than absolute frequency, contextual frequency is of interest. Words tend to be repeated when they are important in a certain context. And when a word is only used once in an entire book and only contributes to setting and nuance but not to the plot, I don't worry about not knowing that word. (I never did so in German, either. And I'm still told I know way too many weird words, simply because I enjoy reading.) At the other hand, rather trying to learn low frequency vocabulary without its usual context, isn't is much more sensible for an advanced learner to acquire vocabulary pertaining to a certain topic together with general knowledge of that topic? When I want to learn about knitting in English, I don't only want to know the words for yarn and needles, but also pattern notation customs etc. Ah, the joys of having internet access! 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4667 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 34 of 56 14 September 2013 at 2:46am | IP Logged | ||
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People learning Mandarin would partially agree :)
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| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4827 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 35 of 56 14 September 2013 at 3:53am | IP Logged | ||
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@Bao:
...and phrases like "casting on", "casting off", "dropping a stitch", "knit one, pearl one, plain one..."...er, that's about my knitting vocabulary exhausted, but I'm sure there's much more. You may or may not know/be interested to know that in the days when most socks were woolen, and from time to time would need repairing, especially in the heel, most wives/mothers would have a "darning mushroom" in their knitting basket. This enabled them to stretch out the heel and keep it firm. But you could also use a fist. :-) 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6549 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 36 of 56 14 September 2013 at 12:38pm | IP Logged | ||
Since there is some discussion about vocabulary here, let me use it as an example. I've tried some of the following with the stated results: 1) isolated vocabulary memorization with very little reading - although the short term looks pretty rosy, long term retention is very poor. I would never succeed in learning a language like this. 2) lots of extensive reading with no isolated vocabulary memorization - very slow vocabulary acquisition. I could eventually learn a language like this, but maybe not before I die. 3) lots of extensive reading with isolated vocabulary memorization - easily the best of the three. I have learned and will continue to learn languages like this I think very few people truly attempt 1 or 2. Imo success with 1 is impossible, and 2 is painfully slow. The secret is to figure out how to best allocate your time in 3. Where you draw the line is probably something that varies significantly for each individual, depending on her circumstances. Anyway, to get back to the quote, if you're talking about scenario 2) above, I agree with you. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| sans-serif Tetraglot Senior Member Finland Joined 4558 days ago 298 posts - 470 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, German, Swedish Studies: Danish | Message 37 of 56 14 September 2013 at 1:07pm | IP Logged | ||
I'm curious as to what exactly you mean by this. The way I understand the term, extensive reading isn't even possible without some form of vocabulary study beforehand. I mean, maybe if the language you're learning is closely related to one you already know, and a lot of words are transparent to you from the outset. But generally speaking it would be impossible to just "read, ignoring what you don't understand, enjoying what you do understand", which is the definition I use. If some preparatory vocabulary memorization is allowed to start up the virtuous circle, I'm nowhere near as pessimistic about this strategy's chances of success as you are. Then again, having reread your post I'm starting to think this would fall under strategy no.3, and I'm essentially repeating what you just said: that extensive reading is not for complete beginners. Edited by sans-serif on 14 September 2013 at 1:20pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4908 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 38 of 56 14 September 2013 at 5:31pm | IP Logged | ||
Thank you for bringing in this simple clarification. I have suffered through (1) thinking I was making marvelous progress, but really just wasting my time. What is worse, I did it while studying Ancient Greek in college using the Reading Greek course. Reading Greek is possibly a course you could almost complete following method 2, but being an idiot I spent hours everyday studying flashcards with all the vocabulary and phrases, but I rarely read the passages more than once. When I started French two years ago, I thought I would use Assimil and essentially follow method (2). I think you could get through Assimil alone and get to a pretty good level without studying vocabulary independently. But when I wanted to read some simple books along the way, I realized I had a lot of gaps which Assimil was filling unevenly, so I got a frequency dictionary and have so far made flashcards of the top 1700 words. That has really helped me to be able to independently read. My experience is like yours: the combination is much better than either method on its own. One supports the other. A couple weeks ago I learnt the word "témoin" from my vocab cards. This week I was pleased to catch it a few times on a TV programme. Other times I come across a word in reading first, and then later it comes up in my Anki deck. This is one obvious advantage of focusing on frequent words. Even the words in the 1k-2k range are bound to come up soon if you are reading (and listening) extensively. Edited by Jeffers on 14 September 2013 at 5:32pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5008 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 39 of 56 14 September 2013 at 7:12pm | IP Logged | ||
I think this is a common point raised against extensive reading but it is not valid. Extensive reading doesn't mean "I'm just lazy to look up things so I just skim through the one book I should read with a dictionary", it is one of the techniques requiring massive amounts of material. It is based on immersion, which is certainly a difference compared to intensive reading, and you see all the important "low frequency" language more than enough if you read enough material and spend enough time on it. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7204 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 40 of 56 15 September 2013 at 9:16am | IP Logged | ||
I have found a frequency dictionary helpful when studying with an Anki type SRS system in the past. My current approach is to use Listen/Reading (Target/Native) and Read/Listening (Target/Native). My goal isn't vocabulary acquisition per se, but rather language acquisition. For me, it's a not unpleasant method. I've also found multiple Assimil courses are good for laying a foundation in the language. For me, the difference in how I approach Assimil and how I approach next-level language growth is in the time dedicated to the material. Assimil may have me going through several lessons in a 30 minute study session, and those lessons will be repeated dozens of times over the course of several months. With next level L/R, R/L, the material may be longer than an Assimil course, but I go through it less times. When I focus on the material, rather than the language, I feel I'm making more progress. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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