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Possesion in German with the dative. | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Doitsujin Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5320 days ago 1256 posts - 2363 votes  Speaks: German*, English | Message 9 of 25 15 March 2014 at 9:54am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I don't think that Falkenstein was being judgmental. Since non-native speakers (and schoolchildren) are usually taught standard German, there's no point in teaching them non-standard German constructions, because they'll be marked as mistakes in written German and if they use them in spoken German others might make fun of them. Edited by Doitsujin on 15 March 2014 at 9:54am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4622 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 10 of 25 15 March 2014 at 10:19am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I must have used hundreds of weird constructions in Germany over the years but I don't recall ever being made fun of. I find the vast majority of people are simply happy to talk. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Bakunin Diglot Senior Member Switzerland outerkhmer.blogspot. Joined 5130 days ago 531 posts - 1126 votes Speaks: German*, Thai Studies: Khmer | Message 11 of 25 15 March 2014 at 10:48am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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@Doitsujin: I think I don't accept your notion of standard German. For me, standard German is what is used by self-identified speakers of the German language, me and my fellow Baden-Württemberg Lands-mates included. People from Vienna, Rostock and Köln included as well, of course. Most Swiss excluded, by the way, because they self-identify as being speakers of Swiss-German, and I agree that this is a different language. I have never been made fun of because of the way I speak, and generally it wouldn't go down well with most people being lectured by prescriptivists about how they should speak proper German. We are as much the standard as you are.
I would also posit that it is indeed useful to know how people speak, and not be hostage to some prescriptivist ideal that nowhere exists. Edited by Bakunin on 15 March 2014 at 11:01am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4707 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 13 of 25 15 March 2014 at 11:39am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I agree with this. Furthermore, I might throw in exactly that construction in speech (but, contrary to Cabaire's statement, it isn't good Dutch in writing to use the garpe- genitiv - see also some other threads where Iversen discussed it in Danish/Norwegian) in Dutch, and even move it into my German. However I wouldn't really suggest using it outside of colloquial contexts. Edited by tarvos on 15 March 2014 at 11:41am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Doitsujin Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5320 days ago 1256 posts - 2363 votes Speaks: German*, English | Message 14 of 25 15 March 2014 at 1:00pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I don't think that you fully understand the term Standardsprache. My main point was that German language learners are well advised to stick with the Standardsprache if they intend to get a CEFR language certificate, because using non-standard German constructions in written and spoken tests might cost them valuable points and moreover won't make them sound more native-like. Of course, this does not mean that they're supposed to talk like newscasters. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5766 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 15 of 25 15 March 2014 at 6:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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As I said, it is probably good for learners to understand this construction, but not use it unless they are with a group of friends who use it all the time and they naturally pick it up as a speech pattern that belongs there. I do not say the pattern is wrong, but it is perceived as part of the regional dialects.
Bakunin, think of it like this: A woman talking to her dog. "Frauchen hat was Feines für Hundi, komm komm komm, Leckerli!" Perfectly acceptable when you're talking to your own dog. Some people might make fun of it. But most people who own a dog fall into certain speech patterns (maybe not as extreme) when talking to their dog. Yet, it's very difficult to imagine, for example, somebody using these speech patterns during a job interview, because they don't belong there. I don't particularly enjoy Bastian Sick's opinion on these matters (nomen es omen), but I do think that this shouldn't be taught as freely interchangeable with other possible ways of marking possession. (Oh, and by the way, Swiss Standard German is closer to Standard German than many German and Swiss dialects are to the respective Standard language.) 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Bakunin Diglot Senior Member Switzerland outerkhmer.blogspot. Joined 5130 days ago 531 posts - 1126 votes Speaks: German*, Thai Studies: Khmer | Message 16 of 25 15 March 2014 at 6:51pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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@Bao: It's funny that you compare a grammatical construction which is well-documented, has been around for ages and is used by, I'd say, tens of millions of Germans to they way you talk to your dog :))
But on a more serious note I would argue that the possessive dative construction is one of the acceptable standards where I come from, Baden-Württemberg. I am 100% positive that this construction is heard every day in job interviews. Do you really believe a baker applying for a job in an area where this construction is a standard would try to speak some 'ideal' German from the North? That sounds highly unlikely to me. It would look stupid, to be honest. Don't forget that this is a standard way of expressing possessive relationships in spoken German in my part of Germany, even though you and others might term it sub-standard. But language is what people make of it, not what someone prescribes.
We have common ground here. By the way, I was of course referring to Swiss German in my earlier statement, not the Swiss variety of standard German. EDIT: And, by the way, let's not forget that the OP was asking about actual language use. It's worth going back and reading his original question. Edited by Bakunin on 15 March 2014 at 7:03pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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