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How adressing to people works in lang-s | ||
Tags: Polite/Informal Forms | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Hampie Diglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 6658 days ago 625 posts - 1009 votes  Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Latin, German, Mandarin | Message 9 of 27 19 November 2014 at 2:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I'd like to add that the way of adress was a horrible mess before the advent of the 70-ies. The use of second
person pronouns were seen as either too intimate or derogatory. This include the Swedish vous-version! In the late 19th century they tried to do a so called ni-reform (adopting the continental tu.vous distinction), however, it failed due too people of higher social status preferring the mess I'm describing below. Du (thou) was only allowed for intimate family and children, and very close friends, if used for anyone else it was seen as an insult. Ni (you) was used downwards, i.e. by people of higher status to adress people of lower status to show distance. It was also passable to use in instances where you could not possibly know the name of a person (i.e. on the phone, in a letter form the government, etc.). Thus, it was mostly used by people to talk to staff, teachers to talk to their pupils, and not very common when people spoke to their peers. To be able to communicate, one thus had to be able to adress people in some way, and that way, the right way, was to use titles. Everyone had a title, if you had not you were probably no one. This is how the King is still being adressed today ny media. After using the title here and there, it would be okay to use the third person here and there. When being less forman, and as to not go crazy by the ridiculousness of having to repeat the same word over and over again, we went on using names instead of pronouns and continuing in third person. This is pretty much akin to how they do it in Japan currently. My grandmother used to work as a maid, and she once quoted the son of heir previous employers as saying "Oh, Märta, she makes such good bread!" to her. And then there were, of course, the generic Herr (mr), Fru (mrs) and Fröken (miss) used with the family name. But for someone who had a prestigious title, someone using Mr. to them, would be seen as insulting. This the doctor in a town would be Dr. Family name, and his wife, the Doctress Familyname. Out of this evolved a way of talking still left in some old ways of asking: passive voice! Thus no one could feel insulted and the poor servers in the cafés in big cities did not have to pursue the telephone catalogue at night (which, in fact, was done in smaller cities to be able to adress people correctly!). A simple "Shall there be more coffee?" "Skall det vara en påtår?" or the wonderfull "How is it being felt today?" "Hour mås det?", or what about "Is it being having a dog?" "Has det hund?" (meaning "Do you have a dog?"). Young men, students and while doing military service, used family names plain, instead of first name, and did the rest in their person. Some words could be used for strangers, children could call older men they did not know for farbror (lit. uncle), or older ladies for tant (lit. old lady). I've read that mor (lit. mother) could be used by high status young people to older low status women. But those things probably varied with the dialect and location. I miss the olden days! 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| vonPeterhof Tetraglot Senior Member Russian FederationRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4771 days ago 715 posts - 1527 votes Speaks: Russian*, EnglishC2, Japanese, German Studies: Kazakh, Korean, Norwegian, Turkish | Message 10 of 27 19 November 2014 at 10:25pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
There are also lots of other honorific particles in addition to -san, although -san is the most commonly used one and only a relatively small number of honorifics is actually used in everyday modern language: -chan is diminutive and highly informal. It's only used when addressing people younger than yourself or very close friends (generally not used by males when addressing other males). Usually attached to the given name, but -chan combined with the surname isn't unheard of. Can also be used to form cutesy affectionate nicknames, for example Sachiko (girl's name) -> Sacchan, Kenta (boy's name) -> Kenchan, Horie (surname) -> Hocchan. -kun has at least two distinct uses: an honorific used by girls to address boys of the same age, and a more-or-less unisex honorific for addressing one's inferiors (e.g. a teacher's students or a boss's subordinates). I say "more-or-less", because it's still sometimes seen as inappropriate for a woman to use -kun to address an adult male, even if he's lower in the formal hierarchy. Can be attached to both given and family names, depending on the nature of the interpersonal relationship. Like -chan can also form affectionate nicknames, for example Taku -> Takkun, Hikaru -> Hiikun. -sama is an extremely polite honorific particle that was used for addressing one's social superiors in the feudal age. Nowadays it's most commonly used in workplace interactions, but never for people from the same workplace as the speaker. It is customary for addressing and referring to clients, partners, counterparts in negotiations, etc. Members of the imperial family are also addressed to and referred with this honorific. Used with the family name or the full name in work-related cases, and with given names in the case of the imperial family (which technically doesn't even have a family name). Also used in standard forms of address such as "o-kyaku-sama" (guest/client) and mina-sama (everyone). -senpai is used in the work and education contexts and is a form of address to someone from the same workplace/school who is more experienced than you. In a school setting it's used when addressing students from grades above yours; at work - when addressing someone doing the same work as you on the same level of the corporate ladder, just with more work experience. Many companies will assign new employees a formal senpai whose function is to instruct them and get them used to the corporate culture. Usually either attached to the surname or just used on its own, but it's also possible for underclassmen who happen to be close friends with an upperclassman to attach -senpai to the given name. -sensei primarily means "teacher" and is most typically used to address someone who, well, teaches. It's also the standard form of address towards medical doctors, as well as a customary form of address towards accomplished people of creative professions (writers, painters, calligraphers, etc.). Used either with the last name or as a word on its own. -shi is only really used in the formal written language, as a form of address towards previously unfamiliar people or as a way to refer to people, especially in news articles. Used with either the family name or the full name. With regard to job titles, if you don't know the person's name but do know their job it's perfectly acceptable to address or refer to them as "[job title]-san". With job titles denoting rank, like "section chief", "department head", "vice-president" or "Minister" it's pretty common to use them after the family name in place of -san or other honorifics, or indeed to just use the rank without the name. This also applies to ranks not associated with professional activity, like "club chairman" or "class president". A special case is addressing family members. Different families have differing standards for politeness and formality in addressing other members of the family (in some very traditional families you see in movies set before WWII you can hear mothers address their own pre-teen sons as "[given name]-san"), but the general rule is that a younger family member won't address an older family member by name, or at least by name alone. For example, younger siblings, even twins, are expected to address older siblings with the roots of the words for "older brother" (nii) and "older sister" (nē), combined with an honorific particle determined by the level of formality in the family (nii-chan, nē-san, o-nii-san, o-nē-sama, [given name]-nii-san, etc.). In addition, most words for family members have two basic forms: a more respectful one for addressing them and a less respectful one for talking about them to third parties; incidentally, you're also expected to use the former forms when talking about someone else's family members. Oh, and like in Chinese and Russian, it's pretty common to refer to address unrelated people using family member terms (though it's more common in children's speech). The Japanese equivalent of the English "ma'am shock" is a woman getting addressed as "o-ba-san" (aunt) demanding to be called "o-nē-san" (older sister) instead. And then, if you haven't mastered the Japanese vowels yet you run the additional risk of mispronouncing "o-ba-san" as "o-baa-san" (grandma)... A few examples from this season's anime to illustrate some of the above principles (the name order is "family name - given name": -Miyamori Aoi, a twentysomething woman who has recently started her first job. Her best friends from school with whom she also participated in after-school activities call her either "Oi-chan" or "Aoi-senpai", depending on whether they were in the same class as her or younger. Most people at her work call her "Miyamori". Her senpai working in the same section as her, who is quite friendly and supportive towards her, calls her "Myamori", which is a cutesy nickname derived from her family name. -Andō Jūrai, a male middle school student. A girl and a boy who are his classmates call him "Andō", a girl from another class on the same level and a girl from the class above call him "Andō-san", while his female classmate who has known him since kindergarten calls him "Jū-kun". -A school club engaging in many activities outside school hours consists of four girls, the second-years Yūki Yūna and Tōgō Mimori and the Inubōzaki sisters, the first-year Itsuki and the third-year and club president Fū. The latter is referred to exclusively as "o-nē-chan" by her sister and alternately as "Fū-senpai" and "Buchō" (club president) by the second years. The protagonist Yūna is referred to as "Yūna-senpai" by Itsuki, "Yūna-chan" by her classmate and simply as "Yūna" by her upperclassman. Itsuki is called "Itsuki-chan" by the second-years and "Itsuki" by her sister. Mimori, who often displays an eccentric streak, for some reason insists on being addressed by her family name, so she is called "Tōgō-senpai" by Itsuki, "Tōgō-san" by her best friend Yūna and "Tōgō" by Fū. A special note needs to be made about pronouns: Japanese speakers hardly ever use them. Not only is the language pro-drop to the extreme, it also allows constructions that would normally be classified as third-person to be used in place of a more conventional second-person. In Japanese addressing the question "What would Yamamoto-san like to do?" to the Yamamoto-san in question is neither grammatically wrong nor bad manners. The only case I can think of where it's necessary to use the second person pronouns is when you don't know your interlocutor's name. In this case the most neutral pronoun to use is "anata", although you have to be careful using it if you're a woman talking to a man, since that pronoun also happens to be the more-or-less standard form of address used by wives for their husbands (in English translations this usage is usually translated as "darling" rather than "you"). "Kimi" is a second person pronoun often used in love songs, either because it used to be respectful or simply because it's shorter than "anata". Either way, it's not a good idea to use while actually conversing with a romantic partner, since nowadays it's primarily used to talk to one's inferiors, and only if you haven't bothered to learn their name. "Omae" (more commonly used by males) and "anta" (more often used by females) are highly informal second person pronouns that aren't unusual among close friends, but can be interpreted as hostile or demeaning when used with people one doesn't know very closely. "Temee" and "kisama" have no function other than to insult. There's more, but they aren't that commonly used outside historical fiction.
Edit: Oh, I was planning on writing a bit more about how foreigners fit into all this when I wrote the first sentence, but I forgot about it, so now it just looks like I was being condescending to shk00design for no good reason. Anyway, what I wanted to write is that Japanese people tend not to expect foreigners to know all the details of the Japanese etiquette and are even willing to forgive certain deviations from those rules if they perceive that as a genuine cultural difference rather than intentional insult. This can feel both very forgiving and more than a little condescending. For instance, the stereotype in Japan is that most in most societies outside Japan addressing people by the given name is preferable to calling them by the family name. Often they are willing to tolerate being called "[given name]-san" by foreigners, while also making the assumption that addressing the foreigner the same way will make them feel more comfortable. You might not mind it when you're just hanging out with Japanese exchange students or travelling through Japan, but imagine actually working in a Japanese company and being the only one in the office known primarily by your first name. Would that make you feel more or less at home? One of the first things I noticed at the Japanese meetups I go to at the Moscow State University is that the Japanese people present all address each other by the family name, while the Russian-Japanese interactions are all [first name]-san basis (as long as the Russians don't accidentally drop the "-san". I followed suit without really thinking about it, and none of the Japanese people I've talked to so far have shown visible discomfort at being addressed by the given name immediately after the introduction, but I still can't help but feel I'm cheating or underperforming somehow. But then, being the only Russian in the room calling the Japanese people by their family names while they call me by my given name would be even more awkward, so しょうがない I guess... Edited by vonPeterhof on 19 November 2014 at 10:45pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tristano Tetraglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 4046 days ago 905 posts - 1262 votes Speaks: Italian*, Spanish, French, English Studies: Dutch | Message 11 of 27 20 November 2014 at 8:01am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Italian
Let's say one is called Mario Bianchi. "Mario": informal, but not just friendly "Signor Mario": still not very formal but with added respect "Bianchi": this form I saw it used more in school, between students and professors use this form to call the students. Can be used also between friends and colleagues. "Signor Bianchi": formal. "Signore": to address formally someone you don't know the name. Signore means both sir, lord and gentleman depending by the context. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6596 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 12 of 27 20 November 2014 at 9:17am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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What about women?
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| tristano Tetraglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 4046 days ago 905 posts - 1262 votes Speaks: Italian*, Spanish, French, English Studies: Dutch | Message 13 of 27 20 November 2014 at 11:04am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Right!
With women is a little bit trickier. Let's take Lucia Rossi, Mario Bianchi's wife, and Marta Rossi, Lucia's sister. Marta is not married. - "Lucia", "Marta", informal - "Rossi", also informal, like in case of men - "Signora Lucia", here the tricky part. "Signora" refers to a married woman, whilst "Signorina" refers to unmarried and also to young women. "Signora Lucia" is correct because Lucia is married, but if she's younger than 40 can feel offended because "Signora" can make her feeling old. However, "Signorina" is incorrect. - "Signorina Marta" is correct, because Marta is not married. - What if you don't know the marital status of a woman? Then use "Signorina" if less than 40 and "Signora" if 40+. You will be corrected if you're wrong but they won't be offended. - The same thing applies with family name and without any name if you don't know the woman's name. - You can also use "signorina" with a young girl you have confidence with, faking formality to make her feel important :) - "Signora Bianchi", refrered to Lucia Rossi, wife of Mario Bianchi: you can use the husband's last name after "Signora" to address a woman in relationship of her being wife. An example: the Mario Bianchi's boss meets Lucia and address her as "Signora Bianchi". With men the marital status is not taken into consideration (anymore). The form "signorino" is not used anymore. unless when a mother wants to talk trash of her little son "Il signorino ne ha combinata un'altra delle sue!" ("the little sir made another mess"). Don't use it to address a man if you don't want to see a perplex face :D 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| eyðimörk Triglot Senior Member France goo.gl/aT4FY7 Joined 4098 days ago 490 posts - 1158 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French Studies: Breton, Italian | Message 14 of 27 20 November 2014 at 11:47am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Slightly OT, but... does this mean that Italian women, like for example French women, do not legally change their surname upon marriage and the husband's name is really just one of 'usage'? I've had some real trouble with that since moving to France since my husband and I both took my maiden name as a middle name and his name as a surname, and it confuses the heck out of some people who think we're married cousins, and my bank initially issued me a card with my maiden name on it, which is troublesome since it doesn't match my passport. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tristano Tetraglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 4046 days ago 905 posts - 1262 votes Speaks: Italian*, Spanish, French, English Studies: Dutch | Message 15 of 27 20 November 2014 at 12:46pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Exactly. The last name doesn't change after marriage.
In Italy a couple can have he same name in case of homonymie or like in you're example if they're married cousins (but it is not the first thing one would think). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6908 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 16 of 27 20 November 2014 at 6:38pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
What if you don't know her age? Which is likely to be more offensive? Assuming she's of a certain age or that she's married/un-married? 1 person has voted this message useful |
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