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Pitfalls of autodidactism | ||
Tags: Self-Study | Learning Strategy | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| sctroyenne Diglot Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5394 days ago 739 posts - 1312 votes  Speaks: English*, French Studies: Spanish, Irish | Message 1 of 11 08 December 2014 at 11:00am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I recently came upon this article that discusses the trends towards self-directed, tech-based learning techniques and platforms which touches on some of the pitfalls of autodidactism:Bill Gates is an Autodidact. You're Probably Not. I agree with much of this article - not everyone is an autodidact and those pushing tech-based educational platforms for the general population that are based in autodidactism are pretty optimistic.
That being said, this forum is made up mostly of accomplished autodidacts (maybe not as accomplished as Bill Gates but we can still pat ourselves on our backs). But, I'd say we're a self-selecting group - anyone who isn't one will tend to drop out - and we may still run into the types of challenges mentioned in the article when it comes to designing and implementing our own study plans and offering advice to newbies.
This is something that this forum and other language learning communities do so well to support. Despite that, there are still many who slip through the cracks. Many never find the appropriate community, look for a method-based solution rather than the many-pronged advice they need and end up shelling out a bunch of money on Rosetta Stone or methods that are of poor quality or ill-adapted to their needs. There are others who do come in contact with the right support but have trouble accepting advice, especially when they perceive it as a daunting wall of text. They'll enthusiastically accept the, "Just try Duolingo!" advice rather than digging deeper (not a dig against Duolingo - it's just not an all-encompassing method as there really are none). These people come away with a superficial understanding of language learning and will be just as lost when (or more likely *if*) they finish their course and find that they still can't seem to have a conversation.
I know I'm guilty of this and I'm sure many of us can relate. When not in a classroom setting, it's really easy to procrastinate doing certain tasks that are difficult or not as enjoyable. Any music teacher can tell you how much they fight to get their students to understand that if they want to play songs, the most efficient method is to practice scales, finger exercises, and tone exercises but so many just don't do the work. I know I got much more raw daily verb drilling done in my high school French classes that served me pretty well in the future when I came back to French, than in my subsequent languages. Numbers, dates, measurements, telling time, etc are incredibly important if one ever wants to live in or travel to a host country but easy to only study superficially in favor of more interesting topics. It's also easy to get stuck doing one kind of task - TV/films, reading, endless series of courses, etc - which is okay, but may lead to lopsided development.
This was especially a problem for me when I first started looking into self-study techniques. I stressed so much over finding the "perfect" methods, got sucked into all the input v. output debates, had many decisions to make regarding books and software, etc to the point that it became more of a habit to browse language learning blogs and forums than it was to actually study. Just looking at the language learning internet community I see a lot of people who seem to be spending more time chatting (and debating) *about* learning their languages than actually doing so. Some people enjoy this - it's a procrastination technique, there's a whole recognition addiction dynamic going on by contributing to, or trolling, a community, the chance to be perceived as an expert, etc. But I think it overwhelms many others.
This is what "learning to learn" means when people say that learning subsequent languages becomes easier. Any good teacher will include direction about how to more effectively learn by oneself, in my opinion. It takes time, experience, and maturity for an autodidact to work on their learning skills. But most importantly, it takes strong self-evaluation skills. What I've personally learned about getting self-feedback and pushing limits as an autodidact: Tracking my study this past year helps me evaluate how I'm spending my time. I can tell if I'm massively avoiding tasks that I should be doing (writing, for example), and favoring tasks that aren't doing much for me. Periodic visits to classes or private teachers can help keep you on track. They will set goals they expect you to achieve which can help push you outside of your comfort zone. The drawback as an adult learner, though, is that so many teachers are accustomed to adult students who are more like "customers" than students. Adults are there for "fun" or for their own pleasure rather than out of necessity so if they really can't or don't feel like making study their priority they won't. As a result, teachers can only be so demanding and there may be little to no evaluation. Again, it falls on the self-directed student to really decide what they want to take from the class. Setting external goals with deadlines. For many of us, that may be a CEFR exam. Or it can be travel to a host country (which can be a disappointment if one is hoping to get validation as a learner while being a tourist). I think this is an area that has many unexplored opportunities. Your goals can be really creative and ambitious. In the show "In the Name of the Fada" (highly recommended to everyone), comedian Des Bishop gave himself two goals for his year learning Irish: take the Irish language portion of the Leaving Cert (he got an exemption when he was a student since he had moved from the US) and perform a stand up routine in Irish (a real one performed in a large auditorium in front of a paying audience). Along the way he found other opportunities to stretch himself: he got a walk-on speaking part in the Irish soap Ros na Rún, he translated and performed the song "Jump Around" by House of Pain, and he auditioned to be a voice actor in the Irish dub of South Park (didn't get it). Benny will often state his goal is to reach C1 in a language just to give himself an ambitious target (and will spend weeks fighting the whole internet as a result) and has changed up his mission structures lately so that he's learning the language before his big immersion experience which gives something to shoot for while studying. I know I've passed on some similar opportunities (improv in French, giving an academic presentation to a French audience) but I accepted other challenges (job interviews in French, many OnVaSortir outings). I think these major goals can be much more effective than simply planning on plodding along to the next stage. But if they're designed well, they will have an uncomfortably-high risk of failure with actual consequences (disappointment, lost money, embarrassment, maybe actual ridicule) so they will seem pretty scary. But it's exactly these high stakes which make these kind of goals so effective. Any other suggestions for overcoming the weaknesses of self-directed learning? 15 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4710 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 2 of 11 08 December 2014 at 11:56am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I think the biggest problem with autodidacts is that you have to have a whole shitload
of discipline to do it. That kind of discipline is something only a select few can bring to the table. I generally do not track my hours because I don't care about the exact numbers but I always know when my skills drop and when it's necessary to put the pedal to the metal and charge. I also try to have IRL challenges because that's what I learn my languages for. I am going to China in 2015 and for this, I'll end up staying outside the capital and I will have to speak Mandarin pretty well to get around! (I'm doing an intensive course beforehand but I want to come prepared). I am not a 100% autodidact, in some languages I have very strong theoretical backgrounds (such as English and French) and I use tutors a LOT. Edited by tarvos on 08 December 2014 at 11:57am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7208 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 3 of 11 08 December 2014 at 12:01pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Know thyself. If a uncomfortably-high risk of failure would be a devastating setback, don't do it. Push thyself. If you know your avoiding a weakness you want to improve upon, find your own way to address it. Love thyself. All who wander are not lost. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5012 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 4 of 11 08 December 2014 at 1:07pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I think the problem is that many teachers make quite the same mistakes for their
students as the students would make for themselves, in my opinion. The students: "don’t yet know much about the subject they’re learning, and so are ill- equipped to make effective choices about what and how to learn next." The teachers: Can't remember anymore what it is like to learn the subject and so are ill equipped to make effective choice about what and how to learn next. (Ex: A professor speaking to students really fast and without explanations about a topic he has been studying for half a century while the students hear it for the first time. Or in languages: a native speaker who has never learnt a foreign language is sometimes very incapable of efficient explanations and assignments) The students: “often choose what they prefer, but what they prefer is not always what is best for them” The teachers: Often choose what they prefer and what is the easiest for them to teach and grade, which is not always what is best for the students. (Ex. all those classes preparing for multiple choice tests absolvents of which are unable to put together a sentence) The student's trouble: "unlimited choices quickly become frustrating—as well as mentally taxing, constraining the very learning such freedom was supposed to liberate." The teachers: The unlimited choices become frustrating etc. Ex: all those teachers who flood their students with a chaos of copies from ten textbooks and workbooks, keeping the class running in circles instead of working with them through one or two resources and making them progress. So, I think the institutions and teachers are not a solution as well. I totally agree communities like our forum are a great help. Especially as vast majority of the learning industry (including public schools) does have different priorities than the student. Let's stay and language learning and teaching: -Students' priority is to learn a language well enough for their purposes. -Publishers' goal is often just to sell their product for the highest price with the lowest cost, sometimes without regards to quality. -Private language school's primary goal is to be easygoing and well marketed enough for the students to start another semester and pay for it. If they feel like failing, they are quite likely to buy more semesters and blame themselves. -Public schools' goal is to perform well enough in aspects important for the state paying them. And all the three troubles mentioned in the article can be solved but the solution is not automatically an institution or a teacher. I procrastinate just the same for my languages and for my university classes where failure can mean huge losses. In both cases, it is my battle to get through the obstacles. Things that are good for me: again, I need to find out for myself both in the autodidact language learning and in my university studies because I am a different kind of learner than my university is best suited for. Unlimited choices: there is a good example:wanderlust. But I am obviously no less capable to orient myself and choose than all those teachers who were just getting stuck and copying the same thing from every course they could put their hands on. Yes, some traints importants for autodidacts are innate, in my opinion. Just like there are naturally more and less intelligent people or more and less beautiful ones. As the article correctly says, it is worth working on the positive traits no matter how much (or little) talent we got in the area. I am obviously an innate autodidact, I basically started when I was 4 years old by teaching myself to read just from the normal exposure and situations. I kept learning a lot of various things from books and I can tell the institutions actually hurt my learning abilities in various ways. Motivation, discipline, enjoyment of learning, all that went down as the years went. Yes, school gave me something as well but those traits I lost are actually missing in my personality and languages are for me, among other things, an opportunity to rediscover them. What I found to work with the troubles of being an autodidact: -Time tracking: I love 6wc. I wish I had such an easy bot for out of the 6wc times. -More fun activities being a prize for the useful less enjoyable ones. -Sharing with others. Giving up on a secret goal is easier and less of a shame than giving up on one I announced in my log. -Giving up to wanderlust cured me from it. It's like a child eating as much candy as they want, getting sick, and eating it more reasonably ever since. -Teachers are useful as tools when you know what you want from them. But they cannot give you more discipline and motivation, at least if you are not forced to keep up with someone demanding. That is unfortunately rare even in the mainstream education. Edited by Cavesa on 08 December 2014 at 1:07pm 8 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6600 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 5 of 11 08 December 2014 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
IDK, I generally despise discipline. Although it does seem that people are generally either workaholics who struggle to devote enough time and energy to what they enjoy/to have hobbies beyond watching tv etc, or enthusiastic hobbyists who struggle with anything they don't enjoy, including minor aspects of otherwise good jobs. (this is loosely based on the J/P distinction in MBTI) Those who really have a balance between work/obligations and personal time probably consciously make sure not to neglect one or the other (and allowing yourself personal time can be hard). Basically, this probably depends on the person, but passion can be at least as effective as discipline. But you also need to allow yourself to pursue said passion, rather than letting mundane things get in the way. In the case of language learning, classes can provide both external motivation and an excuse to follow your passion. Edited by Serpent on 08 December 2014 at 3:28pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5210 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 6 of 11 08 December 2014 at 3:27pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I agree with pretty much the whole original post. Learning a language is only half the battle; learning how to learn a language is an equally big part of it and something that for me is a work-in-progress as much as my languages themselves are. This forum is a great resource for seeing how other people have done it and what techniques and areas you might be missing or find useful, although of course there are disagreements over practically everything and you still have to figure out what works for you personally and your goals.
And as Cavesa says, teachers aren't perfect either; even if you work with a teacher, chances are you'll still have to self-direct a lot of your learning. In fact, I'd even say that teachers become more useful once you have a better idea of how to teach yourself, as you know what to look for in a teacher, how you want them to help you, and what to expect from them. People often think I'm crazy when I tell them I teach myself, and they say that they need guidance, structure, and feedback. I can understand that sentiment, especially at the beginner stage when you don't know where to start. I like being able to decide what I learn, but that can be a double-edged sword. In any case, I'm about to hand in my autodidact card and start working with tutors. I've decided that regular opportunities to practise speaking, be challenged, and get feedback are what I need at the moment, and that decision is based on my years of autodidactic experience. Hopefully I'll get what I'm looking for. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Retinend Triglot Senior Member SpainRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4311 days ago 283 posts - 557 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Arabic (Written), French | Message 7 of 11 08 December 2014 at 3:27pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Even if it comes more naturally to some than others, anyone who is an adult and can
read is capable of reading a few dozen books on a subject to gain a basic expertise in that subject. It's probable that Bill Gates is a special case, but we could all emulate him and unlock our potential. The idea that beginners cannot choose the best materials has a grain of truth to it. We all make mistakes at the beginning and wander down blind alleys... but it's not the end of the world if we do. And, as Cavesa said, teachers often aren't much better informed: as a rule, they certainly have little choice over the published material that they teach with. If the school you go to has chosen a poor quality book then the mistake has already been made for you, without you even having had the freedom of making it yourself. Edited by Retinend on 08 December 2014 at 3:34pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Retinend Triglot Senior Member SpainRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4311 days ago 283 posts - 557 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Arabic (Written), French | Message 8 of 11 08 December 2014 at 3:33pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Surely this requires discipline? ;) 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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