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lloydkirk
Diglot
Senior Member
United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 6239 days ago

429 posts - 452 votes 
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 33 of 53
16 November 2007 at 2:58pm | IP Logged 
xtremelingo wrote:
Lloydkirk,

lloydkirk wrote:
Those 'four' native languages could essentially be reduced to two. Hindu and Urdu are the same language, just written in a different script. Urdu speakers can read Punjabi easily and though Punjabi phonology is different, the spoken form is largely intelligible too.    


I guess I have to address this ALL over again. Lloyd, once again you impress me with bold statements that are inaccurate.

Punjabi is written in Gurmukhi script. This script is completely different from Devanagri and Perso-Arabic. The language itself is different.

The spoken form is largely intelligible to those Urdu or Hindi speakers that are PUNJABI. However, there are plenty of Urdu or Hindi speakers that are NOT Punjabi. And for them, Punjabi is NOT intelligible.

Other elements:

#1. Native Hindi *readers*, Native Urdu *readers*, Native Punjabi *readers* can NOT read each other's language. Each of these languages have their OWN script. Comparing them, is like comparing Mandarin to Japanese, Thai to Arabic.

#2. Urdu has plenty of Arabic and Persian. This makes the overall vocabulary of Urdu very different from Hindi. We know that language consists of words and grammar, and vocabulary is a big part of this prerequisite. Urdu vocab can be largely different from Hindi vocab, particularly that of an educated Urdu or Hindi speaker. Otherwise, most Urdu speakers end up speaking what is actually Hindi, because they are not as formally educated or influenced in Urdu. Thanks to Bollywood, this influence makes it even more apparent and compels Urdu speakers to use more Hindi-based words, and not their own native vocab.

Hindi-Urdu-English mix has also become very 'chic' for many urban-dwellers in these countries.

#3. It is completely possible to find Hindi and Urdu speakers that can not understand a single word of Punjabi, and vice versa. Particularly if you goto parts of India or Pakistan that are distant from the state/province of Punjab in both of these countries. i.e. Karachi or Balochistan in Pakistan. Madras, Hyderbad or Bombay in the mid-south of India. Although they speak Urdu and Hindi respectively, they will not understand Punjabi, unless they were a Hindi or Urdu speaker near Punjab, i.e. New Delhi or Lahore. Most of us that can switch between Hindi, Urdu and Punjabi do so only because of cultural proximity between all three languages in that part of South Asia -- i.e. Punjab. Sort of like the Italian that can speak French and Spanish.

4. The ethnicities of the people. Pakistan used to be a part of India at one point, ethnically the people are the same. Culturally and religiously they are different. However, people that are not accustomed to "brown culture" do not notice these differences. Often, they will make the assumption we are "all the same." It's similar to the confusion you see with Asians. Chinese being confused for Vietnamese, Japanese, vice versa. How often have you heard someone call *any* asian person -- "Chinese?"

"Yeah I gave it to that Chinese guy" when in fact the guy is Korean. Same deal.

This happens with Indian people ALL THE TIME. Many people don't realize, although we are from the same country, we can be very very different ethnically, culturally, linguistically, religiously, physically, etc.

5. The influence of Bollywood has converted many native Urdu speakers into Hindi speakers. Many 'young/hip' Urdu speakers will have alot of Hindi in their language, but that is Hindi they are speaking -- not Urdu.


I'm not going to argue with you about it. I've dabbled in several indian languages, including hindu/urdu and any linguist would admit the differences between hindi/urdu aside from script are mainly political, just like serbo-croatian. Punjabi forms a dialect continuum with hindu/urdu. I have hindu speaking friends from east india and they understand a great deal of both written and spoken punjabi. To master the language would be trivial for any hindi/urdu speakers. However, I congratulate you on your 'accomplishments'.
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xtremelingo
Trilingual Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 6113 days ago

398 posts - 515 votes 
Speaks: English*, Hindi*, Punjabi*
Studies: German, French, Arabic (Written)

 
 Message 34 of 53
19 November 2007 at 8:14am | IP Logged 
Lloyd,

Quote:

Punjabi forms a dialect continuum with hindu/urdu. I have hindu speaking friends from east india and they understand a great deal of both written and spoken punjab


Like I said,

Quote:

The spoken form is largely intelligible to those Urdu or Hindi speakers that are PUNJABI. However, there are plenty of Urdu or Hindi speakers that are NOT Punjabi. And for them, Punjabi is NOT intelligible.


It is completely possible for a Hindu person to be Punjabi. Punjab is just a region of India. There are Christian-Punjabi's, Hindu-Punjabi's, Muslim-Punjabi's, Sikh-Punjabis, etc. But this does not imply that ALL hindu's are punjabi.

It is very likely, your Hindu friends are Punjabi. If they are not, it is very likely they are from at least a region NORTH of Delhi i.e. Uttar Pradesh. People south of Uttar Pradesh and Rajasthan, generally do NOT understand Punjabi at all -- even if they know Hindi.

There are Hindi and Urdu speakers that are NOT Punjabi. To really understand how this works, you need to understand that almost every state in India has their own official language + the national official language (Hindi).

In Punjab State, the state official language is Punjabi, and the national is always Hindi in every state. However, if you were in Tamil-Nadu, your state language would be Tamil, and your national language would be Hindi. In Tamil-Nadu, you could still speak Hindi and/or Tamil but you would NOT know Punjabi nor would Punjabi work there. Because, these areas are geographically, ethnically and linguistically extremely different. The only reason why anyone in Tamil-Nadu or Punjab would know Hindi is simply because it is OFFICIAL.

This is why I recommend those that plan to study Indian languages, start with Hindi, instead of a state-language, i.e. Punjabi, Gujrati, Tamil etc. Because, you get more mileage with Hindi overall, since it is spoken in virtually all states, whereas state languages are NOT spoken in all states.

As for Urdu. A Tamil or Bihari-Hindi speaker would never understand an Urdu speaker in a million years.



Edited by xtremelingo on 19 November 2007 at 8:15am

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lloydkirk
Diglot
Senior Member
United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 6239 days ago

429 posts - 452 votes 
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 35 of 53
19 November 2007 at 7:14pm | IP Logged 
Most of your long post is irrelevant to the matter at hand. My friends are from east India and they are not Punjabi. They merely capitalize on the great similarities between the two languages. Anyways, the claim that you "speak 4 languages at native level" is a great exaggeration of the reality.
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manny
Triglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6184 days ago

248 posts - 240 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish, Tagalog
Studies: French, German

 
 Message 36 of 53
19 November 2007 at 9:18pm | IP Logged 
lloydkirk wrote:
... the claim that you "speak 4 languages ... is a great exaggeration of the reality.

You may have some valid points, but his profile says "Trilingual Triglot" so he does not claim four.
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lloydkirk
Diglot
Senior Member
United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 6239 days ago

429 posts - 452 votes 
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 37 of 53
19 November 2007 at 10:25pm | IP Logged 
manny wrote:
lloydkirk wrote:
... the claim that you "speak 4 languages ... is a great exaggeration of the reality.

You may have some valid points, but his profile says "Trilingual Triglot" so he does not claim four.


xtremelingo wrote:

I am fluent in four languages at native-level. English, Punjabi, Hindi and Urdu.


Apparently, he doesn't think his profile does him justice.
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manny
Triglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6184 days ago

248 posts - 240 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish, Tagalog
Studies: French, German

 
 Message 38 of 53
19 November 2007 at 10:44pm | IP Logged 
lloydkirk wrote:
...
xtremelingo wrote:
I am fluent in four languages at native-level. English, Punjabi, Hindi and Urdu.

Apparently, he doesn't think his profile does him justice.

Ooops. I missed that one.

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patuco
Diglot
Moderator
Gibraltar
Joined 6841 days ago

3795 posts - 4268 votes 
Speaks: Spanish, English*
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 39 of 53
20 November 2007 at 5:54pm | IP Logged 
Guys, lets return to the topic at hand.
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Zhuangzi
Nonaglot
Language Program Publisher
Senior Member
Canada
lingq.com
Joined 6854 days ago

646 posts - 688 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 40 of 53
01 December 2007 at 3:03pm | IP Logged 
I consider myself fluent in the following languages, in declining order of proficiency.

English, French, Japanese,Mandarin, Spanish, Swedish, German, Italian, Cantonese

Fluency does not mean perfection or native speaker ability. It means that I can participate in most discussions, do business, read, understand movies etc.

I have some knowledge of Russian, Korean and Portuguese. I intend to become fluent in all three before moving on to more languages. I do not believe there is a limit of seven.

I use or have used all of the nine languages that I speak fluently in my business and social activities.


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