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The joy of studying of one language. | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6714 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 17 of 27 25 October 2006 at 3:14am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I can see that the quote above has had some comments. I want to stress that I used the words "to me", because I know perfectly well that people can live a full and rewarding life knowing only their mother tongue. - they just shouldn't have linguistics as one of their main interests. I have slightly more problems to understand how people who are profoundly interested in languages (even some linguists) can limit themselves to one or two, when the whole world is full of interesting specimens. That's what I mean by prison. As for being able to think fully in another language (instead of as a stuttering beginner) I think the problem will solve itself if that really is what you want. If you get to a level where you almost can plan your garden or discuss Middle East politics in another language then you have the very best motivation to learn the remaining words and idioms, but you will do so by studying the subject matter and not as part of your language studies. However we cannot find interesting books or films about every interesting subject in every language, and we rarely live in more than one society at a time (though in some cases people do rotate from one place to another), so practical reasons will automatically limit the number of languages that we can use for any non-linguistic purpose. But in a truly multi-cultural setting the number of 'useful' languages might be quite high. Thus Frenkeld's suggestion that even people who learn many languages should learn a few as profoundly as possible and treat the rest as toys will for practical reasons be the outcome for even the most eager student. Edited by Iversen on 25 October 2006 at 4:03am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6954 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 18 of 27 26 October 2006 at 8:33am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I did assume one language meant one foreign language - otherwise, we may as well close this site and go home. I 'd like to nitpick some terminology - one can be interested in languages without being interested in linguistics. Not being all that interested in linguistics, I am not into collecting and observing specimens. This means, for example, that I don't think in terms of language groups, but only in terms of individual languages that may be worth learning.
I think true mastery will still require some study - one would do well to reread a good reference grammar or a usage manual, or even do some exercises, every few years until there is truly nothing left to be learned in that fashion.
I still think one would need to make a conscious decision with those languages one wants to take very far. It doesn't need to be made right away, of course, but it should be made eventually. Edited by frenkeld on 26 October 2006 at 8:33am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6714 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 19 of 27 26 October 2006 at 9:10am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
The quote above lead me to believe that you were speaking of true monoglots so I commented on that group. And especially in this language-fond forum it might be worth stressing just for once that even monoglots can think deep thoughts and live happy lives. As far as the difference between being interested in languages and being a linguist you are right, of course, I didn't separate those two. But still it puzzles me endlessly how some linguists (most notably Chomsky) can limit themselves to just one language (or two) instead of gobbling up all the languages they can manage to learn in a lifetime. They look to me as gourmets who only eat tournedos, but not wienerschnitzel. As for people who know a foreign language quite well, but lack the last little bit of polishing to get frightenly good: yes, of course they might benefit from a peek in a grammar now or then or consulting a pronunciation specialist. But my guess is that they will be either too stubborn to take advice or too occupied with other matters where they really experience problems. That's just my guess, of course. And finally: the choice of languages may be a conscious decision, but I wanted to stress the fact that practical considerations do play a major role when you choose the languages you want to cultivate, especially for those who aren't interested in lingustics or even languages as such. Most people in the Western world don't have to choose actively to learn English (in case that they have another native language) - that language will be forced down their throat. I as a Dane don't have to choose English, it's just there all the time. On the other hand, if I choose to learn Greek then it must be a conscious decision, because material in Greek doesn't automatically pop up on the shelves in my local library. In practice it will be impossible for me to attain perfection in such a language as long as I live outside Greece, - I should be happy just to attain basic fluency, and even that will cost a lot of hard work. Edited by Iversen on 26 October 2006 at 10:01am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6954 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 20 of 27 26 October 2006 at 5:23pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I meant that in a sense of how many languages one knows well. The way my brain is wired, native + 5 "basic fluency" count for less than native + 1 "advanced fluency". With 5 "basic fluency" languages I'd just be constantly aggravated by how much I didn't know every time I opened a book or put on a DVD.
This is not unusual: a theoretical computer scientist who can barely program; a business school professor who couldn't manage a bagel shop to save his life; a theoretical physicist who doesn't like to get his hands dirty with experimental data; you name it. Chomski is a theoretical linguist, interested more in how our brains process languages than in the details of 6,000 languages that are out there. Since running into his book from late 1950's is what gave me the impetus to study foreign languages on my own, I forgive him. :)
Different people must plateau at different levels in how far they can improve a foreign language through use alone. For me things go only so far. I live in an English-speaking country, but my grammar and usage error rates, as well as the accent, have long been on a plateau and will only improve further if I choose to study. Now, your guess is correct that I am not in a rush to take up English grammar drills, but we are talking about being immersed in English day in and day out. I may speak and write a slightly creolized version of it, but it is the language I think in, and I am fluent, so I am being lazy about additional study. However, Spanish, in which I am not and will probably never be immersed, is definitely not going to progress far enough without additional study, despite a fair amount of (written) use it's been getting lately. It will keep improving, but the plateau it will get stuck on will be way below the threshold for "the last little bit of polishing to get frighteningly good". Of course, this may merely reflect the level of my language abilities and may work differently for others.
I completely agree, and I am not saying one must take every foreign language one studies to an advanced level. I am only arguing that it can be a lot of fun to take at least one, and preferably two or three, to that level. Edited by frenkeld on 26 October 2006 at 9:22pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6714 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 21 of 27 27 October 2006 at 4:03am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I can more or less agree with most of the content in Frenkelds last mail (though I'm less impressed by Chomsky than he is). But on the topic of wiring we diverge somewhat. I do hesitate to downgrade my "near-native" English to basic English plus four other basic languages. English is simply too important for me in my daily life. But I might be tempted in the case of French, because even though I have a degree in that language I don't use it on a daily basis. In this case there is no relevant trade because I have already more or less covered the Romance languages, but let me just say that if I could get French, Italien, Spanish, Portuguese and Romanian at a basic level, then I would gladly skip the last step on the ladder for French and stay 'basic'. In practice the trade is different: if you know a language at the basic level, then you CAN use it for reading stuff about other subjects or for having a good time in the company of natives. If this happens often enough then your level will rise automatically, and because this is time that you would in any case have spent on your other interests, this time shouldn't be taken from your studies in other languages. Of course I agree that it would be a very very good idea to keep studying even your best languages. But not to the exclusion of studies in languages lower down in the hierarchy. In my case I prefer spending the time on the points where I here and now feel that the reward will be greatest, and that will typically be languages where I almost, but not quite can use the language for something useful. Using Frenkeld's terminology: for me "Native + 2 Advanced" counts for considerably less than "Native + Advanced + 5 Basic". Edited by Iversen on 27 October 2006 at 6:14am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6954 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 22 of 27 27 October 2006 at 12:02pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
English speakers are at a disadvantage because, as you say, others are likely enough to at least have the insentive to learn English well. I feel that if one is "unfortunate" enough to be an English speaker, it would really be a shame to study one foreign language after another without eventually taking enough interest in at least one of them to want to take it to an advanced level.
Any studying comes out of something else. So, one either makes the choice of being forever stuck on a plateau or one decides one wants to go higher. If the latter, it's then a question of getting things done in the most efficient way. So, I would combine your criterion of maximum reward with the need to keep progressing. The way it would work is as follows. As you use the language in the manner you suggest, for something useful or for fun, you try not to be lazy and record at least those grammar and/or usage issues that you keep repeatedly running into. Once in a while you do something about the growing list. This way you can still focus on the languages and the areas of grammar you need the most, but you also get to do something about them. Now, I only have to put it into practice. :) Edited by frenkeld on 27 October 2006 at 1:19pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6714 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 23 of 27 29 October 2006 at 10:42am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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There are certainly people who get stuck on a high level, even though they could advance further without too much effort. Often there are small things in their pronunciation that could easily be corrected if only they had identified the problem and decided to correct it. I may be naive, but it is my guess that people who still actively study other languages are more conscious about problems of language in general, and they may also be better equipped to correct them.
I do think that English speakers initially are at a disadvantage in their language studies because they have less reason to learn a second (and third, and fourth..) language, However when they do take the decision they at least have a plethora of language courses to choose from, they already have conquered the one major language in the world that has a totally antiquated spelling and they can even afford to choose the tactic of "one native and five basic languages", - contrary to people like me who need to spend a lot of time on English as a secondary language to get on with my other interests. Edited by Iversen on 30 October 2006 at 3:37am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| solidsnake Diglot Senior Member China Joined 7052 days ago 469 posts - 488 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin | Message 24 of 27 07 November 2006 at 12:36am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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dont get me wrong, I'll probably end up attacking another language
or two after mandarin (cantonese and malay), but i just seem to learn so much new stuff everyday in mandarin, i think a lot of people cheat themselves by settling for a lower level of fluency, than by seeing just how deep that rabbit hole goes. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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