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Sounds you can’t produce? | ||
Tags: Phonetics | Pronunciation | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Walshy Triglot Senior Member Australia Joined 6953 days ago 335 posts - 365 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, German | Message 25 of 43 02 November 2006 at 8:04am | IP Logged | ||
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I didn't even know what a trilled r was a year ago, now I can do it alright, thanks to listening to the Rammstein song Spieluhr over and over, (even though I don't like that particular song very much).
The uvular r (in trinken) is easy enough, everybody who has gargled can do it. My first primitive alveolar trills were drowned out by the gargling sound from my throat, because at the time, the uvular trill was the only way I could initiate the alveolar trill (the tongue one). I would basically hold my tongue against the roof of my mouth (not too firmly), then breath out and gargle at the same time. It was drowned out by the gargling noise, but my tongue was flapping and that was all I cared about at the time. After plenty of practice, singing the intro to 'Spieluhr' over and over, I eventually whittled it down and now I think I have a pretty good alveolar trill which requires no uvular initiation at all. The ch noise in 'ach' bothered me for a bit, since it always sounded too strong for me as I couldn't stop my damn uvula from flapping, but I kept at it and now I can do it fine without the hideous gargling noise. To produce this sound, the best advice I can give is to say 'k' a couple of times, then hold your mouth in the same position and breathe out lightly, jut your jaw forward a little bit if necessary. There is one thing in German which has always been a 'thorn in my side', and that is the i in 'wird'. The first time I approached the German language was with Michel Thomas, and he never really clarified the exact pronunciation, the female student would use the long i one time and the short i the next, then an o-umlaut sound, and the male student wasn't much better. It's left me muddled to this day. As best I can tell, it's basically pronounced like 'witt' with a light trill before the 'tt'. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Hencke Tetraglot Moderator Spain Joined 6905 days ago 2340 posts - 2444 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Finnish, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 26 of 43 02 November 2006 at 8:50am | IP Logged | ||
I have heard water pronounced like that, though to me it seems the glottal stop can be heard much more clearly in the case of double t, like in butter, better etc. As for terminology, I take it the "one-flap R" mentioned in this thread, is the same thing that I knew as the "single-trill R", eg. found in Japanese. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6714 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 27 of 43 02 November 2006 at 9:18am | IP Logged | ||
I don't know any Japanese, but it is likely to be the same sound. My use of the word 'flap' may a bit too colloquial for some phoneticists, but I use it because the word "single-trill" is a paradox in itself. Isn't there a joke about some zen monk who ordered his pupils to meditate on the sound of one hand clapping? Edited by Iversen on 02 November 2006 at 10:28am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6779 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek | Message 28 of 43 02 November 2006 at 9:24am | IP Logged | ||
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"Alveolar flap" is what they usually call that Japanese sound, so you're accurate enough.
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| Hencke Tetraglot Moderator Spain Joined 6905 days ago 2340 posts - 2444 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Finnish, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 29 of 43 02 November 2006 at 10:40am | IP Logged | ||
It is a well known Zen koan, no joke as far as I am aware. Actually the one hand clapping was later demonstrated to be perfectly feasible, by Bart Simpson, so there we go. Perhaps it should have been about one hand "flapping". :o) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| NuclearGorilla Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6797 days ago 166 posts - 195 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Japanese, French | Message 30 of 43 02 November 2006 at 6:50pm | IP Logged | ||
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For those interested in the topic, or who really want to nail down some particular sound, I recommend finding a copy of J. C. Catford's A Practical Introduction to Phonetics. It goes through and explains how to articulate virtually any of the sounds in human language.
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| RogueRook Diglot Senior Member Germany N/A Joined 6843 days ago 174 posts - 177 votes 6 sounds Speaks: German*, English Studies: Hungarian, Turkish | Message 31 of 43 03 November 2006 at 6:47am | IP Logged | ||
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A rather tricky sound is word final "r" in Turkish, as in günler,haberler ( plural forms od "day" and "news"). It is a thrilled. If I'm not mistaken it is a voiced alveolar vibrant.
It sounds like a mixture between a weakly thrilled "r" and a queer "s". 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| szaten Triglot Newbie Poland Joined 6633 days ago 4 posts - 4 votes Speaks: Polish*, EnglishC2, French Studies: Turkish | Message 32 of 43 03 November 2006 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | ||
I definitely have to agree. I have no idea how to pronounce it, especially as it sounds to me more like 'sh' than 'r' - at first I was quite convinced that it actually was close to the English 'sh'-sound. I also have difficulty in pronouncing 'ö' in Turkish, even though I am doing my best. 'My best' is in this case far from impressive, as I was told, after having tried million times to pronounce it more or less correctly, that my dad, who has never learned Turkish, says it much better (actually, to my horror, he pronounces it perfectly ;-) ). 1 person has voted this message useful |
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