Sounds you can’t produce? (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

Sounds you can’t produce?
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Language Learning Forum : General discussion

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Captain Haddock
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Message 41 of 43

06 November 2006 at 5:03am | IP Logged

Interesting, NuclearGorilla. Spurred to read more about it, I saw that according to Wikipedia , this flap-tap distinction is sort of made up by a minority of linguists and not widely or consistently applied. In fact, the linguist who proposed it has backtracked and prefers "flap" in all instances now.

As far as the vernacular meanings of flap and tap go, there's no useful distinction I can see.

If one were to insist on a linguistic distinction, the Japanese r would be a tap (but I'll keep calling it a flap).

Edited by Captain Haddock on 06 November 2006 at 5:04am
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Iversen
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Message 42 of 43

06 November 2006 at 11:38am | IP Logged

Andy_Liu wrote:

I conquered uvular and alveolar trills in 2 weeks, but I still have problems:

1) I know native speakers of languages having these sounds won't trill that hard, and in practice I do the same, but what's troubling is my throat gets dry quickly after saying a lot of words that require trilling - how to care for the throat?

2) Are there different forms of the alveolar trill? I mean, the tongue position may be different in, for example, Italian and Russian.

I also don't understand the French R - what is it? And what are flaps (e.g. Japanese r)?

You throat gets dry (or feels so) until you are so used to making the new sounds that you don't have to strain it to make them. I'm sure that I would be very tired somewhere in my mouth if I tried to speak Cantonese, but you of course speak it effortless, - that's the effect of years of practice. Until then: don't do all the multiple trills, - the natives often just do a simple flap, and then the multiple flaps (trills, rolls) are there for putting emphasis on something.

French R (which spread from around Paris during the French revolution) is made in the far back of the moth, but there are many variations. For some it is just the sound made by obstructing the airflow between the back end of the palate and the corresponding part of the tongue (no flaps or trills), others manage one flap with the velum, and really hardcore back-tongue trillers can almost play drums rolls with their uvula (try to listen to some Edith Piaf or Mireille Matthieu ). But you don't need those for ordinary conversations.

Edited by Iversen on 06 November 2006 at 2:43pm
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Iversen
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Message 43 of 43

06 November 2006 at 11:50am | IP Logged

NuclearGorilla wrote:

To clarify, though, there is a difference between a tap and a flap. With a tap, the tongue is moved from below the alveolar ridge and moves rapidly to hit it before moving rapidly away. For a flap, the tongue begins pointed upward behind the alveolar ridge and is struck against the ridge in a downward motion. I believe the Japanese 'r' is typically referred to as a flap rather than a tap. I don't know if this is actually true in practice.

Interesting, and a distinction that I hadn't met before you mentioned it. I have always used the word "flap" to avoid "trill" and "roll" that both imply several rapid tongue movements in a row (even though linguists have extended the original meaning so far that it now also covers one short tongue mouvement). There has not been a need in the languages that I know to use different words for the two different single movements that you describe (I don't speak Japanese).

Edited by Iversen on 06 November 2006 at 2:43pm

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