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Learning Vocab without Studying Vocab | ||
Tags: Vocabulary learning | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4846 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 1 of 67 17 July 2013 at 3:34am | IP Logged | ||
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I'm sorry if this has been covered already in the forums; I tried a Google search and didn't find exactly what I was looking for.
Is there anyone here who learns vocabulary solely by using the language, i.e. by reading, speaking, listening, etc? This means no SRS, no wordlists, no Goldlists, no flashcards, no writing the vocabulary 5-10 times in a notebook, nothing. No techniques or methods to remember the vocabulary. You just see, hear, and perhaps look up the word in a dictionary so many times that it sticks. The reason I ask this is that I'm currently thinking of dropping Anki from my study routine. I've found that SRS is quite boring, whether I do sentences or words, audio, whatever. However I set it up, it is boring to work with. I'm thinking of trying wordlists or Goldlists (although they seem to be more time-consuming than SRS), but I hear about people that say they just learn vocabulary through reading. This sounds amazing to me. I understand that this is possible with someone who is advanced in their target language and have such a large vocabulary base that they can easily learn new words through context, but I find it extremely hard to believe that a beginner or intermediate learner of a language can learn vocabulary without using any systematic vocabulary learning methods. Maybe if you had a bunch of picture books, but surely you would need a lot of picture books to get the repetition that you need to make words stick, and I certainly cannot afford that. If there is anyone out there who is B1/intermediate or lower who doesn't use any kind of system to retain or remember the vocabulary that they come across when using the language, other than using the language - whether it be flashcards, SRS, using a notebook, wordlists, Goldlists, anything at all - I would like to hear from them. Because my hypothesis is that everybody uses some sort of technique to retain and remember vocabulary. Otherwise, whenever you read something or have a conversation with someone in your target language, you are going to have to refer to your dictionary 50 times for the same word until it sticks. (Yeah, I realize that that is a technique, too, but it doesn't seem so efficient.) 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| The Real CZ Senior Member United States Joined 5648 days ago 1069 posts - 1495 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Korean | Message 2 of 67 17 July 2013 at 5:23am | IP Logged | ||
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Intensive reading in a narrow field does wonders. For example, intensively read hundreds of political articles, hundreds of business articles, etc. etc. Just look up the word in the dictionary and move onto the next word. You can do this with books (though I wouldn't recommend it with Japanese or Chinese due to how inconvenient it would be), and by the time you finish one book, you'll have seen, for example, 10,000 words repeated multiple times. Then move onto the next book, rinse and repeat.
With a language like Japanese, a site like DramaNote is a God send since the site contains the scripts to a lot of Japanese dramas. You can do this and learn a lot of words by intensively reading with the aid of rikaichan or something similar. I personally do this with Korean and Japanese (I can find drama scripts in both languages), and inputting words from books in Korean isn't a big deal. I was in your boat, as I had tried this and that to learn vocabulary. I would try single words in Anki, sentences, MCDs, word lists, etc. To me, they're all boring as hell. I would rather piss out fire on a daily basis than to spend hours inputting cards into Anki and spending an hour reviewing my decks. Yes, this isn't the most "effective" way to learn vocabulary from a statistical standpoint. Yes, an intricate system such as Anki can theoretically help you learn vocabulary, grammar, etc. more efficiently, but if the system itself makes you avoid the language, you're better off not using the system in the first place. Tae Kim has a good article about this type of vocabulary learning. This article on AJATT is good. Also skim the links that the article contains. Yes, while this method isn't what people would call statistically and timely efficient, this method has entices me to keep learning. I end up reading and listening a lot more than I normally would have, and I don't have to worry about how many f**king cards I have to plow through before I get back to what I want to do. 11 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4846 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 3 of 67 17 July 2013 at 6:12am | IP Logged | ||
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@TheRealCZ - Thank you for the post! And those links are awesome.
I'm glad you chimed in. I read a lot of your stuff, including that article you wrote on AJATT a while back. I suppose I should stop worrying about what is efficient and instead worry about what will get me to study the language without stress. But with your method, you have to be reading a LOT of stuff all the time, right? Edited by kujichagulia on 17 July 2013 at 6:16am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Bakunin Diglot Senior Member Switzerland outerkhmer.blogspot. Joined 5129 days ago 531 posts - 1126 votes Speaks: German*, Thai Studies: Khmer | Message 4 of 67 17 July 2013 at 7:09am | IP Logged | ||
That's how I learned Thai. I also didn't use translation at all. It worked (and still works) fine. Beginner techniques: - educational videos for kids (aimed at 3-6 year olds); I had about 50 hours of that stuff covering 'sounds in the environment', 'tools in everyday life', several hours on drawing (faces, facial expressions, objects of everyday life, animals, humans, boys and girls, old people, family) and painting (water-color painting etc.) and other artistic hobbies, videos on animals, culture, major festivals etc.; I would just listen to and watch those videos, usually a few times (3-7 times); since the language is very repetitive in these kinds of videos, words quickly clicked - working with Wimmelbücher and a tutor; Wimmelbücher are text-free books for kids containing a wealth of everyday objects and situations; do a search for 'Das große Wimmelbilderbuch. Durch Stadt und Land. Maxiausgabe' or 'Ein Jahr in Wimmelhausen'; I had my tutor explain what we see step by step for many hours; we usually spent 2 hours per double page (see example pages on amazon.de); that was incredibly effective for picking up vocabulary related to everyday life and activities Lower intermediate techniques: - I had Thais record a children's encyclopedia with many pictures (usually 10-15 small pictures per page, visually explaining the text) which I listened to while looking at the pictures (I didn't look at the text at this stage since I hadn't started reading yet); this was very effective in broadening my vocabulary base to intermediate vocabulary (climate, animals, humans, culture, history, science, tools and inventions, transport, sports, etc.) - watching TV, mostly documentaries, travel and lifestyle shows; I really liked travel shows since they show you what they talk about; good for picking up more vocabulary and getting used to conversation; I also started watching talk shows, cooking shows etc. - I had a Thai record stories about everyday life on topics I gave her; she made about 40 hours of those recordings on 100+ topics (15 minute per topic in three 5 minute segments); those recordings were extremely useful in broadening my vocabulary base; see my project thairecordings.com for an offshoot of this idea (but with transcripts; I didn't use transcripts in my own learning process) - learning to read by watching 'learning to read' videos for kids Intermediate techniques: - extensive reading (mostly books for young readers, 9-15 year range) - extensive listening (podcasts, TV, radio, recordings) - started working with a monolingual dictionary (Royal Institute Dictionary); this allowed me to start intensive reading (reading slowly and carefully while looking up words I don't understand) - started speaking and interacting in Thai with friends (regularly) and strangers (when in Thailand) Advanced techniques: - reading, listening, speaking and writing; working with a tutor My general experience is that I absorb words effortlessly that I encounter often enough in context. I mainly look for activities that are fun, interesting and keep me engaged; that's when I learn best. Study is not necessary, but commitment and persistence is. SRS disclaimer: I did none of the techniques you mentioned (no SRS, no wordlists, no Goldlists, no flashcards, no writing the vocabulary 5-10 times in a notebook) for vocabulary acquisition but I recently (past the intermediate stages in my learning process) started doing Anki to work on spelling. Edited by Bakunin on 17 July 2013 at 7:15am 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Retinend Triglot Senior Member SpainRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4307 days ago 283 posts - 557 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Arabic (Written), French | Message 5 of 67 17 July 2013 at 9:35am | IP Logged | ||
Really?! The obsession with ANKI is just alarming. From when I dropped word lists entirely is when I made real progress from the beginner stage. My own learning process is to shadow and write out what I shadow - then when finished I type it out. But any process in which you continually review a corpus of sentences/ phrases would be an alternative to ANKI. The advantage of reviewing sentences rather than flashcards should be self-evident. And putting sentences into ANKI? How on earth is this better than writing by hand? If I'm not being clear: writing by hand is one of the best aids to memory there is. Also, reading is good for vocabulary, but in my experience the book should be read twice before you expect any good amount of the words to stick. If the book is any good you'll read it more times, considering that each time through the material yields more depth in accordance with your depth of knowledge. I go through the book the very first time with a pencil, parsing the text. Then again through it, writing down the phrases in which the new words appear. Then I revise my notebook at a later date and rewrite the sentences with Scriptorium. This strategy exposes me to hundreds of words a minute, rather than a dozen or so that I would see in ANKI. edit: wait. "Because my hypothesis is that everybody uses some sort of technique to retain and remember vocabulary." You mean that everyone has a technique to "retain"? You mean as compared with...? Yeah every technique has to lead to retention, but this doesn't mean that everyone HAS to drill individual words before they're ever used in a meaningful sentence. Speaking from experience (admittedly in a European and not exotic language), this sort of thinking is wrong and leads to disappointment down the line. Edited by Retinend on 17 July 2013 at 2:04pm 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| lwtproject Pentaglot Senior Member Netherlands https://learning-wit Joined 4891 days ago 149 posts - 264 votes Speaks: French, Dutch*, German, English, Mandarin Studies: Italian | Message 6 of 67 17 July 2013 at 11:55am | IP Logged | ||
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You wrote:
no SRS, no wordlists, no Goldlists, no flashcards, no writing the vocabulary 5-10 times in a notebook, nothing. My recommendation: Just read and listen A LOT, and I mean A LOT - e. g. with "Learning with Texts". 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4621 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 7 of 67 17 July 2013 at 12:18pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think you can soak up additional vocabulary naturally once you reach a certain level. I no longer actively
study German vocabulary. I read regularly, do lots of listening and speak whenever I have the chance. If I come across an unfamiliar word I'll make a mental note to look it up later, but I don't write it down. Yes, sometimes I'll discover the meaning of a word and then promptly forget it, but this probably happens in our native language as well. But if you throw enough mud at a wall, some of it is sure to stick. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Amun Triglot Groupie Netherlands Joined 5057 days ago 52 posts - 72 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, French Studies: Spanish | Message 8 of 67 17 July 2013 at 1:51pm | IP Logged | ||
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IMO, not focusing on vocabulary is only helpful in the initial stages (A1/A2 levels) of
the learning curve, mainly because you are learning high frequency words that get repeated all the time in any given language, so you don't need study vocabulary systemically yet. However, past these levels you really need to start acquiring vocabulary systemically. I love Anki for this reason, you don't have to worry about forgetting words and you can study in manageable daily doses (20-30 words for me). If you successfully make this a habit of yours, without realizing it you have a vocabulary of several thousands of words in a relatively short time all stored in your long term memory. Although it will be mostly passive vocabulary, but when you start reading in the language more often after that stage it will become active vocabulary the more you encounter the studied words. 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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