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Reducing Self-Study Method Abandonment | ||
Tags: Burn-out | Self-Study | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5380 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes  Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 105 of 139 02 September 2013 at 5:14am | IP Logged | ||
I'm reading everything in this thread, learning all I can. I have some ideas as to how I might incorporate some tools we don't usually find in self-teach courses, but there is no denying that as an independent author, it's not very wise to be investing in a book that might not sell. So no, no website, no external content, and I'm certainly not keeping track of external links. But to be honest -- without getting into the finer details --, the biggest challenge at this stage is simply to present the information in an coherent and functional manner. And I don't have all the answers yet. My first book (link under my name next to this post) has been on the market for almost a year now and has been doing surprisingly well -- the recipe was simple: though it does have recordings, it's not offered as an ebook (that might change soon though) and it doesn't provide any external links. However, the book was mostly designed to present information that didn't exist before, so it was groundbreaking in its own way, but not because it pushed the limits of what a teach-yourself course can offer. And presenting that information was in itself a challenge. I did consider turning the book into an iPad app (click to hear the recording, click on words to see the vocab entry, various links, etc.), but again, it's a significant investment for a single person and I have no idea how long it would take to recoup the costs, if ever. Truth is, I have no serious competition at this point. If you want the info, get the book. It's already more than what would have been possible a year ago. Edited by Arekkusu on 02 September 2013 at 5:16am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5206 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 106 of 139 02 September 2013 at 11:22am | IP Logged | ||
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The idea of the interactive learning environment s_allard describes sounds incredible, but still seems like fantasy to me. Not as much from the technological aspect, but more from the business one. Several of us have recognised that there's a shortage of books and courses for intermediate and advanced learners; if publishers aren't funding books and courses for these levels, then I really don't see them being prepared to fund a fancy high-tech online environment for them either. Realistically I agree with Cavesa that we're more likely to just see more and more crappy "fun and easy" beginner resources, as that's where the market is.
I agree with Tarvos and Benny that humans are the best "resource"... in theory. I imagine there's no substitute for a great tutor, but you'd better be willing to spend a small fortune. Or you can try to find a helpful, serious and reliable language exchange partner, but good luck with that, they're like gold dust. Socialising and making friends with native speakers is also very helpful, but that can also be easier said than done for some languages - it's helped me a lot with Italian, and that's going to be my main method for learning Spanish, but I've found French speakers to generally be a lot more closed and difficult to connect with and I can't see it being easy for more obscure languages. So books and courses still have their uses! 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 107 of 139 02 September 2013 at 12:30pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think that socialising and connecting with people has more to do with other skills,
less so linguistic ones, but more obtaining an understanding of how a certain group's culture functions. Books and courses have their uses, but I need them tailored to two situations - one where I just devour input and only need to know the basic gist and ingredients and want to notice trends - this is to obtain an understanding, a vocabulary. And a section where I need to delve into details to speak absolutely correctly. And the order in my opinion is that you do the bulk of vocabulary acquisition with a minimum of grammar first, and then you work on the grammar. However this doesn't mean that you can relegate tables or give away the grammar piecemeal during the course. You need comprehensive overviews - in fact I'd rather the material just be texts (maybe bilingual) and notes on the text, notes on particular vocabulary. And at the end should be a COMPREHENSIVE overview of grammar. Tables, neatly organised, explaining the rules properly. No hand-holding, no beating round the bush. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5008 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 108 of 139 02 September 2013 at 1:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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Tarvos, I totally agree the human interaction part is a lot about other skills and factors as well.
We have already got many language exchange sites but I think a lot of things there work in the exactly same way as in the real life. And there is no way to change this and still keep the quality and value of the human interaction. The only huge difference is the shorter distance between people. But while we know it is not that easy to find real life friends you would love speaking with a few hours a week, we still somehow expect (and get disappointed) that the first or second exchange partner we try will be one of them. Garyb, I think we can take the "relatively slow" evolution of the language tools as a very good sign and reason for optimism. Majority of people still doesn't prefer learning online and so the traditional market finally got to the point of filling the gaps and we are getting more intermediate and advanced tools. For example, there was no C1 textbook (I mean a course with a CD as usual of course) for the French learners until a year or two ago. But after the publishers finally noticed such resources for Spanish are being bought, something moved. There is Alter Ego 5. While it isn't better for many skills than the massive input (and noone expects or requires it to be), it seems to be really good for some other sides of learning. There is the new fourth level of Grammaire Progressive, with focus on advanced details and common mistakes. I think the future of books isn't that grim :-) And there is another thing I believe will keep the books alive, even after a huge wave of online tools popularity. When you are at your computer (or ipad is even worse), too many stimuli are fighting for your attention. You study from a webpage but whole world is waiting just one tab away and a one minute "I'll just check something" turns into an hour easily. I have faith the people will realize that having computer as an awesome complement while studying from things on your table has got some great advantages for many brains. Btw there is one app I would love to see. A motivational thing that would show you an encouraging message like "You are awesome! You are progressing well!" and such during your studies. :-D 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5429 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 109 of 139 02 September 2013 at 5:36pm | IP Logged | ||
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I see that the prodigal child has returned, Welcome back. I missed you.
On to the original topic. OK let's not talk about new directions in the field of independent language learning. Let's not talk about online language learning. Let's not talk about the impact of smartphones and tablets. Let's not talk about interactive learning envrisonments, Let's not talk about using technology for access to native speakers and resources. Let's talk only about current products. Let's talk about how @Arekkusu, as an independent author, can improve the contents and the marketing of his products. I have no problem with that. Lest we forget, the language learning publishing industry is dominated by a number of large publishing houses with deep pockets. In the self-study market, some of the same publishing houses are present but we have the big names like Assimil and Rosetta Stone. We can be assured that they are looking towards the future and the future is digital. Enough said. For independent authors like @Arekkusu, the problem is that the shift to the digital platform is more than just selling a pdf version of a book. Designing true multi-media applications for the digital universe requires significant money, technical expertise and a different mindset that are too challenging for one person. There is no doubt that there is a significant market for niche products like Arekkusu's book on Québécois for English-speakers. There are many books and countless websites on Québécois for speakers of other varieties of French but very few for English-speakers. So the issue boils down to how such niche products can be improved. Unfortunately, I personally can't contribute much because I'm much more in the online world. But using the collective resources of HTLAL learners who know a thing or two about language self-study, @Arekkusu should have lots of ideas for future editions. Edited by s_allard on 02 September 2013 at 5:38pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5429 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 110 of 139 02 September 2013 at 5:53pm | IP Logged | ||
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I just had a flash. I think a lot of useful insight could be gained from @emk's language log. With consumate style
and sophistication, he details in great length his learning process including all the resources (including multi- media and tutors) that he used to reach B2 in French. And I also think he is a user of @Arekkusu's book. emk's language log Edited by s_allard on 02 September 2013 at 5:58pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5261 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 111 of 139 02 September 2013 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | ||
Whatever you do for Anglophones who want to learn French with a focus on Quebec will be more than what's out there now. I think you will do quite well. How many Anglophones are within a 10 hour drive, or a two hour flight, of Quebec? Quebec is much more accessible for many North Americans than France, easier and cheaper to get to and easier and cheaper to stay. The big publishers are really missing out on an unfilled niche that Arekkusu is going to fill. I know what it's like to run a one-man shop. Given the limited resources available, there's only so much one can do. A complementary website is probably out of your reach, but a wordpress blog, facebook page, twitter account (which you already have, I just followed you today) isn't. Your blog could be a place where you pass on information about learning, your facebook page would be a way to reach a lot of people too and your twitter account would direct them there. You could share what you find helpful to learners of Quebec French. I wouldn't have a clue about the literature, tv, films, books, blogs, podcasts and music of Quebec. As a native-speaker, you do. Something along the lines of Adir Ferreira Idiomas who also runs the Transparent Language Portuguese Blog. I love his tips on learning English for improving my Portuguese. He often uses youtube videos to provide little mini lessons on Portuguese (and English) with notes on usage and vocabulary. You don't have to be as active as he is, but even a weekly update would be a great addition and would provide value-added for the purchasers of your book. Having a blog, facebook page and tied in twitter account, you can get feedback from your readers/learners about what they like and don't like (outside of HTLAL) and also help them to take their French further. That's your value added. I wish you the best of luck and look forward to seeing your sorely needed beginner's Quebec French course/book soon. Edited by iguanamon on 03 September 2013 at 3:35pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5429 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 112 of 139 02 September 2013 at 7:54pm | IP Logged | ||
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Since @iguanamon mentioned a website, I thought I might sneak in a suggestion of a favourite website of mine
for advanced learners of French. Fluent French Now This not for beginners. It doesn't concentrate on Québécois but it has a large Québécois component. I'm sure @Arekkusu is aware of it because I have mentioned it a number of times before. The key idea here is that without going whole hog on a fancy website learning environment one can gussy up the traditional book by adding an online component. I didn't bring this up; @ignanamon did. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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