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Speaking after B2, not in country | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| pesahson Diglot Senior Member Poland Joined 5733 days ago 448 posts - 840 votes  Speaks: Polish*, English Studies: French, Portuguese, Norwegian | Message 17 of 40 20 December 2013 at 6:30pm | IP Logged | |||||
Completely agree.
English is ubiquitous, you're right. That means many people have it easier to become conversational. Achieving near native fluency (what emk is aiming for) is something different. Listening to some songs in your TL won't do the job and that's basically it when it comes to that 'massive exposure' that non-English speakers have. They might listen to music mostly in English but the rest of their lives are conducted in their native tongues. With the exclusion of maybe Scandinavian countries, English language TV shows are dubbed or with a voice over. You won't learn much from that. If they want to surround themselves with English they still have to make an effort and a conscious decision to do so. Sure, Czech or Swahili input will be harder to find then English, but not French or Spanish. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| mst Triglot Newbie Brazil Joined 4962 days ago 9 posts - 20 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, French, EnglishC2 Studies: Italian | Message 18 of 40 21 December 2013 at 4:12am | IP Logged | |||||
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To be honest with you, I've got an A in the Cambridge C2 exam and still struggle with
some things you mentioned. Still, according to my Cambridge report the only part of the exam in which I didn't excel was writing. I tell you this only to make you aware that the goals you have are very ambitious. Briefly: I had English for 5 years at school. Didn't learn a thing, like most people. Took a private course (2x/week) for 2 and a half years that got me to a solid intermediary level. Got through hundreds of fiction books, watched lots of TV shows and movies for 5+ years. Went abroad for the first time: Canada for 2 months (1 month intensive English course, which was a waste of money. Backpacked for 1 month by myself which was what provided me the most speaking practice). Back to Brazil, did a semester of a prep course for the exam and got the certificate. Conclusion: what got me to C2 was mainly the massive amount of exposure to the language. When I got to Canada, I found that casual conversation flowed quite effortlessly (struggled a bit in the beggining, after all I had not had opportunity to practice for about 5 years, but after a week I felt like I "unlocked" all that). Trivial topics posed no problem. I found myself using idioms naturally. And I most definitely thought in English. However, to this day, speaking in a circle of natives about subjects I'm not really familiar with, or that I'm not used to discussing (or reading) in English - the philosophical or political ones that sometimes pop up in a bar table, for example - can be a pain even in my best days. I think this is because they stop making accomodations for you, since they know you speak the language at a high level. But there's also the fact that those aren't subjects I usually read about (I read mainly fiction). Besides, I've never been in a context where I was forced to use English academically, so even though I have a passing knowledge of the vocabulary needed (enough to understand when it's being used), it isn't readily available to use. Long term solution: Read more scientific magazines, political articles, academic books. Short term solution: Write about these subjects, this way you expose the holes in your vocabulary (and also practice using the vocabulary that you've been reading). The problem with speaking is that you can get by using simpler words and ideas and you rarely go looking later for "the right word" that you needed to express the full scope of the grandiose idea you had during that dorm discussion. Also, unless you are in the university, these interactions make up a tiny portion of your daily use of the language. If you are writing, however, you have plenty of time to rack your brain (or look it up in a dictionary). Since your wife is a native French speaker, you might try engaging her into these "deep" discussions, ideally in a topic that you've been reading about (and taking notes of the useful vocabulary). Basically, keep doing what you've been doing. But since the vocabulary you need is so low frequency, take notes more actively and force yourself to use it. Otherwise, it won't pop up in reading often enough to become active vocabulary, nor will it pop up in discussion to let you use it (making it thus, active). Concerning consistency, I find that I can make trivial conversation quite easily, even if it's been some time since I've last spoken English (due to the massive exposure). High level discussions, however, are a whole different story. I've got to be warmed up, speaking the language for a couple days, and I got to be familiar with the subjects. Otherwise, I'll get by, but I will feel like a 13 year old discussing politics. TL;DR You are in the right path, keep doing what you've been doing but force yourself in situations in which you'll have to use this more specific vocabulary. Concerning consistency, keep practicing, you are lucky enough to have a native speaker at home. Good luck! (btw, your French log is awesomely useful!) 7 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Gemuse Senior Member Germany Joined 4087 days ago 818 posts - 1189 votes Speaks: English Studies: German | Message 19 of 40 21 December 2013 at 7:29am | IP Logged | |||||
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I would also suggest hanging out in a french forum online on a regular basis where they
have some discussions. And where you post several times daily, with the goal of gradually increasing the complexity of things you post. The posts should ideally be several times a day, as timepass, so that French becomes something in the background that you are constantly using, and understanding. Edited by Gemuse on 21 December 2013 at 7:30am 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4627 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 20 of 40 21 December 2013 at 9:43am | IP Logged | |||||
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Exposure is ultimately the key. In the 90s, I became interested in Irish and studied quite hard at home with
book & cassette packages. After a year or so, I went to a multi-level residential course in an area where the language was still spoken natively. I was very enthusiastic about the language and eager to try it out with fellow speakers, although I was still very much at conversational level myself. It didn't take me long to realise that the Irish people on the course who had been exposed to the language in the education system (it's compulsory for all pupils, right the way through) were way more advanced than me, even though they said they hated Irish lessons at school and never really learned how to speak. Also, in Ireland, bilingual signage and Irish terms are everywhere in society. Okay, it's not as ubiquitous as English pop music but the influence is always in the background. With a massive language like French, it should be easy to flood your free time with resources and create your own little private French bubble. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| culebrilla Senior Member United States Joined 4002 days ago 246 posts - 436 votes Speaks: Spanish | Message 21 of 40 21 December 2013 at 1:28pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Do you listen to all your music in French?Steve Kaufman wrote once that he doesn't find songs "efficient" or "useful" or something, but I'm a big proponent of them. If you have the songs in your head you really remember the words being sung and they are usually "high-yield" words, not some words that an erudite will know.
Do you listen to French audiobooks while in the car? You could pick an easier one since it is hard to drive and listen to a non-native language at the same time. This last tip won't help *too* much, but do you write things in French on your desk?On my desk I have computer speakers and a 3 hole puncher and when in college I wrote the translation in Spanish. The writing is still there and I really won't forget them unless I have early-onset dementia or something. Or you can also write a few words on your hand to be the words that you will learn for that day. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6914 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 22 of 40 21 December 2013 at 3:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Perhaps Steve has that opinion because the lyrics are sung and not spoken, and that there is relatively little "content" per time unit (this is my reason not to base my langage learning on lyrics).
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| culebrilla Senior Member United States Joined 4002 days ago 246 posts - 436 votes Speaks: Spanish | Message 23 of 40 21 December 2013 at 6:32pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Yes, it is relatively inefficient but I think that listening to music is still effective since you can internalize a lot of words and sentence structures. Plus it's fun!
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| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4538 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 24 of 40 21 December 2013 at 6:41pm | IP Logged | |||||
Yeah. But this discussion was about how to move from a solid B2 to C1 to C2. I don't believe for a moment that songs will give you enough vocabulary/syntax to do so, no matter how much fun it is. Perhaps it helps, but it's at best 1% of the solution, not 99%. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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