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Speaking after B2, not in country

  Tags: Speaking
 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center Post Reply
40 messages over 5 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 
Avid Learner
Diglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 4667 days ago
100 posts - 156 votes 
Speaks: French*, English
Studies: German

 
 Message 33 of 40
23 December 2013 at 5:14pm | IP Logged 
jhaberstro wrote:

Were you writing or typing? I've read that writing and typing affects different regions of the brain, so (although I'm
doubtful) it could be important to clarify.

I was typing, since it was on the Internet.

The thing is that it took me several years to get to that point. However, my goal had never been to improve my English (neither in writing, nor in speaking), it just turned out to be a consequence of wanting to discuss topics which were interesting to me. I only wrote when I felt like it, never actively seeking the opportunites. And that's where English is different, as was discussed earlier in this thread: I happened to be discussing in English because that was the language in which what was interesting to me was discussed. Clearly, I have to make a conscious effort to use the same strategy with German.

It just turns out that, IMO, if you are able to come up with an argument effortlessly in writing, there's no reason why you shouldn't eventually be able to do the same in speaking. Considering emk would be much more proactive than I was and that he gets more opportunities to speak than I do, even if it's not as much as he'd like, there's no reason he shouldn't be able to progress much more quickly than I did and achieve better results.

Finally, I don't know about the rest of you, but I tend to avoid discussing heated topics at work or even sometimes with my extended families or some friends because that can lead to bad feelings. So, even in my native language, the Internet is where I get involved in the most challenging discussions. That's what I meant when I was saying that the availability of such discussions are probably greater on the Internet than in real life, and that it might just compensate for the fact that it is not exactly like speaking.
4 persons have voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6602 days ago
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Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 34 of 40
24 December 2013 at 12:25am | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
emk wrote:
1. My personal best was probably receiving medical care in a bilingual emergency room. Some people would walk into the room and speak to me in English; I'd respond in English. Other people would walk in and speak to me in French; I'd respond in French. It was all pretty easy and natural on my part. One completely bilingual doctor kept the conversation in French for a good 5 or 10 minutes before she finally switched to English. (This was a perfectly natural outcome, since her English was as good as mine, and I don't insist on speaking French when English is obviously the polite or sensible choice.) I've had other days like this, and I absolutely adore them.

2. My personal worsts are those days when everything falls apart, when I have to hunt for words I should know, when I need to actually conjugate verbs deliberately, and so on. These days are frustrating.

My problem is that I would love more days like (1), and I could certainly make use of those speech skills at home, but I can't produce days like (1) on demand.
You know you're a language nerd when... :D
On a more serious note, is it possible that sometimes you have these *great days* but are too busy with reading/listening to notice? Much like they say you should dress for the job you want and not the one you have, practise speaking as if you're having a perfect day.

And yeah, as your best days improve, so will your average and even bad ones. Using this forum's scale, when I was at basic fluency in Finnish, at my worst I seemed like an intermediate learner. (same with Portuguese now) Now that I'm at advanced fluency, even at my worst it still sounds like basic fluency.

I haven't found long-term immersion necessary. Writing is important though, especially as when you're no longer a beginner you're more likely to be able to say everything you can write. And of course it forces you to concentrate on the grammatical accuracy.
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sctroyenne
Diglot
Senior Member
United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5396 days ago
739 posts - 1312 votes 
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Spanish, Irish

 
 Message 35 of 40
24 December 2013 at 9:55pm | IP Logged 
Allow me to do a little reposting of something I wrote about in my log. While looking up the ACTFL standards for language proficiency, I came across a cache of articles on language learning including this one, Managing Your Language Learning Program by Carol J. Orwig, which spells out in pretty good detail what you should be able to do in each skill area at each level of proficiency. For speaking she outlines the following for Advanced and above:

Quote:
Speaking

Advanced

This is the first stage where you will feel comfortable living, working or studying in a country where the target language is spoken. It will allow you to meet people, to socialize with them and to take care of your basic job requirements, although in a limited way.
      
People will understand you without much difficulty and you will be able to deal with most face-to-face conversations on concrete topics with slight complications. You will probably be understood by people not used to dealing with foreigners, although they (and you) might find communication tiring after some time. You would still grope for words at times. Usually, this is the highest level you can expect to attain without spending time living in a community where the language is spoken.

Here are the kinds of things you should be able to say at Advanced level:

      
    -Describe a sequence of events that happened in the past
    -Describe things that used to happen in the past, such as things you used to do when you were younger, or people and places you used to know or visit
    -Compare and contrast two objects, customs or places
    -Talk about your future plans or goals
    -Explain a simple process you know how to do, such as making a cake or repairing a tire
    -Give instructions about what you would like someone to do, explaining the steps involved in carrying out an activity, such as when telling a housekeeper how you would like her to wash the clothes
    -Give a brief, organized, factual summary of what happened in an event you attended
    -Give advice to someone faced with making a decision, giving reasons for your advice
    -Lodge a complaint, giving the reasons and details of why you are dissatisfied
    -Express personal apologies clearly and appropriately to someone you have offended
    -State the advantages and disadvantages of a situation or a decision
    -Tell someone what you would do in a hypothetical situation, such as if you suddenly received a lot of money
    -Answer the telephone at home or at work
    -Describe your job and the organization you work for
    -Direct people to the right building or office
    -Handle simple job-related inquiries


Superior

You should aim for this level if you

      
    -plan to live for some years in a country
    -need the language to carry out fully your job responsibilities
    -have a very strong interest in the language
    -are interested in the country where the language is spoken, and
    -want to make close relationships with people who speak the language.

      
If you get there, you will speak fluently and rarely make grammatical mistakes that bother native speakers. You may still have to search for a word occasionally, but will be able to come up with another way to say what you want. You will be able to talk about a full range of topics and deal with people on a professional level.

      
You can expect to spend months or even years in the language community before you reach this level, as it involves sociolinguistic competence. This proficiency can only be developed by experiencing language in a large number of social situations.

Here are the kinds of things you should be able to say at Superior level:

      
    -Persuade people to do something they do not want to do or to stop doing something you do not like
    -Describe a complex object, such as a car or bicycle or computer in detail, using the correct vocabulary
    -Present arguments on both sides of a familiar issue or topic and evaluate the merits of the arguments
    -Discuss a professional topic at length
    -Explain in detail a non-routine, complex process, such as how to do grammatical analysis or how to perform an operation
    -Present a talk at a professional meeting
    -Tell someone in detail the possible consequences of a certain situation, for example, if the price of coffee were to rise suddenly
    -Express what you think might happen if something unexpected occurs
    -Propose a course of action and defend your proposal in such a way that people might be persuaded to accept your idea
    -State a personal point of view on a subject, including controversial issues, explaining why you hold your beliefs
    -Handle formal business situations
    -Talk to dignitaries or influential people
    -Discuss issues in the news


Distinguished

If you want to speak the language almost like a mother-tongue speaker, you will need many years in the speech community, and have to work at learning after you can communicate the basics.
      
Very few people achieve this goal unless they emigrate to another country relatively early in life, but it is possible and is a worthy goal. You need this proficiency if your job requires, diplomacy, the ability to express sophisticated nuances of meaning, the ability to hint at things not directly expressed.

Here are the kinds of things you should be able to say at Distinguished level:

      
    -Do informal interpreting
    -Take part in mediating or negotiating between two parties
    -Discuss in detail highly abstract or unfamiliar topics
    -Tailor the style and content of your presentation on the spur of the moment to an audience different from the one you had expected


Some of the skills translate pretty evenly between the CEFR and ACTFL standards which this is based on. But I think it diverges quite a bit here for spoken skills. Advanced seems to be a combined upper-B1 and B2, Superior seems like a combined C1 and C2 (if I'm not mistaken, if you can perform all the tasks listed under Superior on the exam for C2 level, you ought to score well for speaking), and Distinguished seems to be a level beyond C2 going towards fully-bilingual.

These lists are useful since it's easier to target what you need to work on to acheive each level, especially what to target grammar-wise. It would be most helpful to be forced to work in the target language, an opportunity I think I'll work on seeking out :)
3 persons have voted this message useful



Jeffers
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 4914 days ago
2151 posts - 3960 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German

 
 Message 36 of 40
28 December 2013 at 4:18am | IP Logged 
Emk, you have gotten tons of good advice on this thread, and I hesitate to add to it, since I usually look to you for advice, but there is an idea you mentioned elsewhere, which I think you could expand on.

You have recently been taking an online mooc in French. My question is, how involved did you get in the course? Thousands of people take these courses, but on the few courses I have looked into, only a handful participate regularly in the forums. Having to discuss a new topic in French will really stretch your vocabulary and ability to express yourself. To go beyond forums, you could perhaps ask some of the classmembers for a skype conversation about some topic you discussed in the class forums. You could even see if anyone in your meetup wants to take a class at the same time as you. I imagine if you really get into some moocs in French, I mean really participate fully in them, this could be the thing which pushes you to the next level.

(For those of you who don't know, a mooc is a Massive Online Open Course. In other words, an online class. Universities seem to be falling over themselves to offer the best and most interesting free classes. Coursera is one of the biggest, and they have some classes delivered in French. I have also seen classes delivered in German and Chinese. The biggest providers I know of are Coursera and edX, but I think edX courses are only available in English.)

Edited by Jeffers on 28 December 2013 at 4:21am
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Hungringo
Triglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 3993 days ago
168 posts - 329 votes 
Speaks: Hungarian*, English, Spanish
Studies: French

 
 Message 37 of 40
28 December 2013 at 10:32pm | IP Logged 
I regularly listen to The Economist's audio edition and wonder if French quality newspapers and magazines have audio editions. Listening to these editions and perhaps reading the printed version at the same time would help a lot.

I would also recommend French language quizz programmes like "Harry"

http://www.france3.fr/emissions/harry
2 persons have voted this message useful



Jeffers
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 4914 days ago
2151 posts - 3960 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German

 
 Message 38 of 40
29 December 2013 at 9:22pm | IP Logged 
Hungringo wrote:
I would also recommend French language quizz programmes like "Harry"

http://www.france3.fr/emissions/harry


"Cette video est inaccessible depuis votre territoire ... "

Darn >.<

But, you're also in the UK, Hungringo. Am I doing something wrong?
1 person has voted this message useful



Hungringo
Triglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 3993 days ago
168 posts - 329 votes 
Speaks: Hungarian*, English, Spanish
Studies: French

 
 Message 39 of 40
30 December 2013 at 6:05pm | IP Logged 
Jeffers wrote:
Hungringo wrote:
I would also recommend French language quizz programmes like "Harry"

http://www.france3.fr/emissions/harry


"Cette video est inaccessible depuis votre territoire ... "

Darn >.<

But, you're also in the UK, Hungringo. Am I doing something wrong?


Darn. I haven't watched it for a few months and it seems that they blocked this programme too. Originally I watched Julien Lepers' Question pour un champion and when it was blocked I started watching Harry. It's a shame really, and is severely damaging the French "mission civilisatrice".

Edited by Hungringo on 30 December 2013 at 6:05pm
1 person has voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6602 days ago
9753 posts - 15779 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 40 of 40
31 December 2013 at 4:00am | IP Logged 
Proxy server? Opera turbo?


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