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Memorization Strategy for classification | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| schoenewaelder Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5565 days ago 759 posts - 1197 votes  Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 17 of 38 14 January 2014 at 1:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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What is strange/curious/intersting about "der Frau" is the tendency of languages to prefer to recycle known aspects for different purposes, rather than coming up with new, unique markers.
I suspect that most of us designing a language, given that we were obliged to have four cases and three genders plus plural, would tend to assume that we would need sixteen different endings in order to be clear and precise, but in real languages it is apparently easier for the brain to make do with only four (-e, -r, -s -n), and derive the rest of the information from context. It's similar question as to why homonyms exist, or languages with limited phoneme inventories. It seems to be easier to work with a limited number of characteristics, and do a little bit of processing to work out what something means in a given situation, rather than memorise additional characteristics Edited by schoenewaelder on 14 January 2014 at 1:48pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5014 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 18 of 38 14 January 2014 at 3:50pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think it should be clear we need to keep apart memorisation (or any other way of acquisition) of the genders from the declination. That "der frau", that is not an example of separate memorisation for every word and every form. That is just an example of a classical, regular declination of a noun.
Yes, sometimes it is easier to remember a gender (especially those that keep fleeing my memory even after repeated exposion though every possible way) in a combination of words, in another form, with meine instead of die and so on. On the other hand, once you have internalized that the word is of the particular gender (preferably automatically enough not to ever need to think about it), you just follow the usual declination models. Edited by Cavesa on 14 January 2014 at 3:51pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5771 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 19 of 38 14 January 2014 at 5:00pm | IP Logged | ||
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Cavesa, I think that is the problem for native speakers of languages without declension that has gender and case. If you come from a language that has both and just doesn't re-use a few forms as much as German does, you'll probably think "okay, they're being uninmaginative there" and accept that a certain article, pronoun or case ending can be used for several forms. But when you come from a language like English I assume it's very confusing, and I know many learners do something similar to Gemuse.
That's why I tried to explain that gender and declension only make sense when looked at in context so it might help to learn how to do so, and not just hope that sooner or later it'll click when you've just memorized enough paradigms or looked at enough examples. (It may or may not, but I think it is likely to be quicker to learn from analysing word order and referents when you can't yet parse a sentence automatically. And to do cued recall memorization of examples.) Edited by Bao on 14 January 2014 at 5:00pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5014 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 20 of 38 14 January 2014 at 7:12pm | IP Logged | ||
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That's true. English natives may find the whole concept of declination confusing (just as I used to find a lot of their grammar totally stupid, restrictive and boring :-D ). However, a good coursebook or grammar should be perfectly able to put some light on the matter and explain it is more matter of logic and following the appropriate models than pure memorisation.
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| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4538 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 21 of 38 14 January 2014 at 7:34pm | IP Logged | ||
But how often do native speakers use logic and follow appropriate models? My impression is that they produce language (with all the correct declinations etc) from tons of exposure. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5014 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 22 of 38 14 January 2014 at 7:43pm | IP Logged | ||
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1. For exemple, Czech children learn the models at primary schools. While they declinate words (at least the common words) usually correctly from pure exposure by then, they are taught the models to correctly handle less common words, to understand the standard declinations should they be used to dialect and to correctly write the words. Of course, most of us get used to automatically correct declinations through a lot of reading so that we don't need the tables anymore but there are Czechs who would do well to remember the old tables at times before sending an email or something and embarassing themselves.
2. Of course, you can totally skip grammar learning and just expose yourself to the language and it works great for some people. But getting the logic behind it without having to reinvent the wheel is very likely to speed up the process significantly, including earlier correct appliction of grammar in active speaking or writing. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Gemuse Senior Member Germany Joined 4087 days ago 818 posts - 1189 votes Speaks: English Studies: German | Message 23 of 38 14 January 2014 at 8:09pm | IP Logged | ||
I apologize if I annoyed you, Thanks for the many examples. You are correct, that to fluently use it correctly in a live conversation, massive exposure is needed. A German native takes years to learn German, with 24/7/365 immersion (like any native language speaker). What we are trying to do for L2 learners is to accelerate the process using logic, and being fine with taking a hit to speed in speaking. There is (almost) no way I am going to have as much practic with speaking German as even a 10 year old native German in my lifetime. However, L2 speakers can still produce reasonably good output, quickly, provided that they are willing to take a hit in the output speed. Massive input is one way to learn. Why not also make use of our reasoning faculties? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Gemuse Senior Member Germany Joined 4087 days ago 818 posts - 1189 votes Speaks: English Studies: German | Message 24 of 38 14 January 2014 at 8:19pm | IP Logged | ||
There are two issues: Having a set of declinations, and mixing them up. We have die Frau in nominative and accusative (so the same for both), and that is perfectly fine. Brain does not want to remember 16 declinations. The problem comes with mixing declinations (die Frau, der Frau). Keep them same, or make it a totally new declination. Mixing them up is hell on the brain. AFAIK Sanskrit has more cases that German, but it does not mix them up. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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