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Foreign languages in the EU | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| MarcoLeal Groupie Portugal Joined 4833 days ago 58 posts - 104 votes  Speaks: Portuguese* | Message 9 of 34 24 July 2014 at 7:41pm | IP Logged | ||
Yes, you're right but that's sadly not the whole story. It's true that if you were born before (very roughly) 1975 you're most likely to have learned French as the primary foreign language. However the amount of people that remained in school long enough to have foreign language education was dramatically smaller then. Dropping out immediately after finishing elementary school was unfortunately the rule, not the exception, especially in rural areas which is where most people lived back then. So very few people even had the chance to learn the language to being with and because not everybody is equally good at/committed to learning languages, fewer still would ever become proficient enough to hold a conversation. Add on top of that decades of limited to no use of the language (the vast majority of people have no reason to use it) and you'll see that these speakers can't make up 1.5 out of 10 million people. Of course all this discussion depends on what is meant by "holding a conversation" but my point is the standards have to be pretty low for 15% of people to qualify. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6596 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 10 of 34 24 July 2014 at 7:43pm | IP Logged | ||
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Maybe immigrants also contribute to the French as second language stats in Portugal?
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| MarcoLeal Groupie Portugal Joined 4833 days ago 58 posts - 104 votes Speaks: Portuguese* | Message 11 of 34 24 July 2014 at 8:03pm | IP Logged | ||
The number of people immigrating to Portugal from French speaking countries is pretty much negligible. Do you mean perhaps portuguese emigrants that moved to France, Switzerland, etc. and later came back, having learned French there? While it is true that many portuguese emigrated to these places in the 50s, 60s and 70s, I would say most of them end up staying there, even though they visit frequently, usually during the Summer. I don't know how the data was gathered but counting these people wouldn't make much sense. If I had to estimate the number of people living in Portugal capable of holding a conversation in French I would put it at 3-5%. In other words, at 1 in every 20-30 portuguese. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| rdearman Senior Member United Kingdom rdearman.orgRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5235 days ago 881 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, French, Mandarin | Message 12 of 34 24 July 2014 at 8:43pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think the problem with this data was it asked people if they were "conversational" in another language. They weren't tested, so this is self-determined. This means that responses would have wild variations. Some types would claim they speak 5 languages even if they only know 2 words.
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| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6596 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 13 of 34 24 July 2014 at 9:11pm | IP Logged | ||
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I mostly meant those from, say, Africa or Spain. Along with those who do learn it at school/university (and isn't it important for many disciplines?), this could make up a larger percent of the population. Yet on their own there aren't so many that Portuguese would be a common foreign language (like in the UK, Spain, Germany). Just speculating though. I don't know how common it is for immigrants to rely on English or Spanish, for example. (Well, I know it's common among footballers, haha)
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| Luso Hexaglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6060 days ago 819 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, French, EnglishC2, GermanB1, Italian, Spanish Studies: Sanskrit, Arabic (classical) | Message 14 of 34 24 July 2014 at 9:35pm | IP Logged | ||
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@ MarcoLeal:
I'm afraid your analysis is a bit biased (as you admit), probably because you're young. Let me address the issue by using topics: 1. Up until the 1960s, educated people in Portugal spoke both French and English (in that order). As you say, it was not a large part of the population. Both my parents, having grown up in Lisbon and having had the opportunity, are in this situation. 2. During the 1960s and early 70s, a large part of the population (mostly rural and uneducated) emigrated (mostly to France), to escape both the colonial wars and poverty. Sad but true. 3. In the 1980s and 90s, a large part of that population (having built houses and stuff) came back to spend their retirement years in their places of origin. 4. Meanwhile, the school panorama had shifted. When I started learning languages (the late 1970s), it was still a 50/50 scenario. English was more important, but my parents (like many others) believed that, since I was going to learn both anyway, better start with French (closer to Portuguese). 5. Just a few years later (my younger siblings) everyone took English first, and that's the situation today. 6. In the younger generations, it's "fashionable" (for the lack of a better word) to hate the French language. I think this happens because it is perceived as a stint (three years, when available) and of little use. I wrote "perceived", not necessarily true. So most young people see it as a waste of time. Ok, I hope this was not too boring. I tried to be objective and schematic. To conclude, I'm not so sure that a higher conversational value for French (15%, was it?) in Portugal is that high. Older people speak good French, both in big cities (educated ones) and in small villages (former emigrants). Odd, if you want, but still holds true. By the way, I was just addressing that piece of Marco's statement (the doubt). I agree with the rest. As I'm a bit older, I have a different (broader or, at least, longer) take on things. 8 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4289 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 15 of 34 24 July 2014 at 9:52pm | IP Logged | ||
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I saw a travel documentary a few years ago, and if I understood correctly, quite a few
have good French skills also from fleeing the government (usually to France) that was in place in Portugal from 1929-1974, if I remember the dates correctly. I leave it thereat. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Luso Hexaglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6060 days ago 819 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, French, EnglishC2, GermanB1, Italian, Spanish Studies: Sanskrit, Arabic (classical) | Message 16 of 34 24 July 2014 at 10:16pm | IP Logged | ||
Almost. 1926-1974. I didn't go into more details, as I prefer to avoid political discussions. In this case, however, it was necessary to pinpoint the demographics. During the 1960s and early 1970s, it is estimated that one million Portuguese left the country, which had an estimated population of 8 million at the time. If you take into account that a high percentage of those who left came back after retirement (and that many are now between the ages of 60-80, i.e., still living) you can reach a figure of over half a million fully fluent people without difficulty. Add a few descendants (not many), plus all the people that learned the language while staying here, and you can be in the statistics' ballpark. Edited by Luso on 24 July 2014 at 10:18pm 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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