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REAL multi-languages fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4532 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes  Studies: German | Message 89 of 102 26 September 2014 at 10:05am | IP Logged | |||||
It might seem strange but I don't really want to sound like a native. I like many of the accents in English and have no desire to be confused as a German by other speakers.
Reading really does seem to be the key if you want to reach the higher levels. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5765 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 90 of 102 26 September 2014 at 12:38pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I've said it before, and I can repeat it now: As I haven't grown up in any of the cultures I am learning the languages of, I think it's stupid to try to pass as a native speaker in them. I want to give the impression of a friendly, educated foreigner who is eager to learn even more than she already knows.
Being a good non-native speaker is an asset. Being mistaken as a native speaker when you may lack some of the lived cultural experience can be a liability. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Elenia Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom lilyonlife.blog Joined 3855 days ago 239 posts - 327 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Swedish, Esperanto | Message 91 of 102 26 September 2014 at 1:45pm | IP Logged | |||||
Take into consideration the fact that many native speakers can't even imitate the different accents of their own language, let alone another. Being able to reproduce sounds is one thing: for example, I often mispronounce l'amour so it sounds like la mort. This is a fault that can change the meaning of a sentence quite drastically, and is also something I can rectify with attention and practice. However, even if I get the sounds right, it doesn't mean I won't still sound English. I think it's insulting to say that someone isn't putting 100% into what they're doing just because their accent isn't native like. English is a special case, as has been said before, but I have a friend from who has lived and worked in England for the past 8-9 years of her life. She is now at university, studying medicine. English is not her mother tongue, and she speaks English with a South African accent. I would not dare say that she hasn't put 100% into learning the language just because she doesn't sound like she was born and raised in England. Similarly, I have German friends who go to my university who still have German accents. Clearly they've put enough effort into their study of English to be accepted to university (one at masters level, without ever having lived in an English speaking country), so how can I accuse them of not putting their utmost into learning English? I think they've spent their time better than if they had only tried to achieve perfect accents. And finally, the case of a Romanian friend who spoke English with an American accent. Once again, she was a student at my university and exceptionally bright, she spoke perfect English with a flawless accent, and yet she was still asked why she spoke with an American accent if she wasn't American. Sometimes you just can't win. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 92 of 102 26 September 2014 at 1:50pm | IP Logged | |||||
Which is why it is such a shame no one teaches stress or intonation patterns, which are much more desirable things to teach than generallly assumed. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5206 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 93 of 102 26 September 2014 at 2:37pm | IP Logged | |||||
Donaldshimoda's point wasn't that failing to acquire a perfect accent means not making enough effort; it was just that learners should at least try rather than completely ignoring it. Which I largely agree with in principle, although especially in the case of English, people often don't bother working on their accent because they simply don't need to: people understand them fine. And most language education ignores accent, as tarvos says about stress and intonation, leaving people to think of it as something naturally acquire to a certain limit that depends on talent as opposed to something that can be improved with effort. I think these are the two reasons that so few people try to improve their accent. Personally, working on my accent and learning about phonetics had never even crossed my mind until it became apparent that it was causing problems for me. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 94 of 102 26 September 2014 at 2:49pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Working on your accent doesn't mean improving your accent to the point where you can
imitate the queen, either. Intonation especially conveys a LOT of meaning in many languages, English in particular, and it causes misunderstandings. Some phonetical mistakes, like mixing up the Dutch g and h, cause problems in understanding. The same happens where vowel length is concerned, or even simply a vowel is substituted with another vowel because the ü sound is not in your language but the u sound is. When I teach I don't require my students to speak impeccably, I teach them to start listening for differences in accent and intonation which mean different things, and I teach them to start pronouncing correctly, especially in order to avoid mistakes orally or in order to avoid people to respond to them in English (which is usually judged by accent in Dutch, thus not sounding overly English is desirable). 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Elenia Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom lilyonlife.blog Joined 3855 days ago 239 posts - 327 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Swedish, Esperanto | Message 95 of 102 26 September 2014 at 2:55pm | IP Logged | |||||
I agree with you on every point. I have come across a lot of people who completely ignore the accent of their target language and, instead, speak it as though they were speaking their L1. I also agree that accents can be improved with practice and with the points about stress and intonation: it was only after eight years of formally learning French that one of my teachers sat down with me and gave me exercises to improve my pronunciation. Stress and intonation have yet to make an appearance, and I doubt they ever will. What upset me is Donaldshimoda's belief that not having a near native accent means someone is not truly fluent, or that they haven't made enough effort towards fluency. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 96 of 102 26 September 2014 at 3:18pm | IP Logged | |||||
That is because somehow most teachers leave it for the very last thing (it's made an appearance in my French tutoring). Stress and accent are not routinely taught and very few teachers have any sort of idea of how to teach it well. It hasn't got anything to do with a value judgement of how important tone, intonation, stress and rhythm are, but it's a lack of knowledge on most educators' part. I haven't seen any single teacher teach it in any of the classes I've taken until I started asking how it worked and only then because my French teacher is specialised in phonology. Go FIGURE. Edited by tarvos on 26 September 2014 at 3:19pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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