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Sentence Method question... | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| Javi Senior Member Spain Joined 5980 days ago 419 posts - 548 votes  Speaks: Spanish* | Message 9 of 27 15 April 2009 at 11:30pm | IP Logged | |||||
How can it possibly be less optimal than translating the sentence you are working on to your native language just for the sake of writing a flash card?. These Polish guys behind Supermemo and Atimoon aim to a very high level of proficiency in English. I would say that not even native fluency but the English of an educated native. At this point working with monolingual material is the only way to go as there's no native language to go from. Perhaps you've noticed the fact that, for a start, it is a web page about learning English written in English!! I think we can safely assume that the typical follower of their methods knows how to read and how to use computers, and most likely they are in the habit of doing some kind of intellectual work. Yes I know, not all people can do those things, and so what? It seems that you haven't learnt any of your languages to a near-native level and from your comments one could get the impression that you neither want to nor care about. That's fine, we are talking about different goals, different stages and different approaches. The OP don't even bother to show up, so at least for me this thread is over. It's not like I enjoy arguing about the same thing all the time. Edited by Javi on 15 April 2009 at 11:41pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6010 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 10 of 27 17 April 2009 at 8:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
It may take longer to build a bilingual deck than a monolingual one, but I believe that the self-discipline needed to use a monolingual deck is just too much of a burden. You believe building a bilingual deck is too much effort, I believe using a monolingual deck is too much effort... we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I'm not going to convince you, you're not going to convince me.
A) "aim for" and "acheive" are very different things. Many aim, few achieve. B) "Educated English" is actually far, far easier than normal colloquial English. The grammar has been consciously regularised, so grammar books (for English speakers) will tell you that the opposite of I used to [do something] is *I didn't use to... when the real opposite is I never used to.... There's lots of little things like that. Edit: PS. I do want to learn some languages to near native level, but I don't want to learn all of them to near-native level. I thought I was getting close with Spanish, but I've realised that I've slackened off badly and amn't putting much effort into it at all, so unsurprisingly, I'm actually getting worse.... Edited by Cainntear on 17 April 2009 at 8:47pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Javi Senior Member Spain Joined 5980 days ago 419 posts - 548 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 11 of 27 17 April 2009 at 9:53pm | IP Logged | |||||
I'm afraid it is more than just effort. What I fear are those connections between L1 and L2. I've worked without them so far and I haven't missed anything.
That may be true, but I didn't say educated English, I said educated natives. I was thinking of the kind of people who finished college, perhaps spent some time at university and are obviously quite capable of talking colloquially. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6010 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 12 of 27 17 April 2009 at 10:28pm | IP Logged | |||||
How do you know? If you've missed it, you won't notice that you've missed it -- that's the problem I've had with my Spanish. When people stopped correcting me, I got overconfident. Anyway, it's not always about associating or connecting the L1 and L2. Sometimes it's about making the differences between the two clear -- no matter how I've gone about learning a language, there will always be the tendency for L1 patterns to jump into my head, and knowledge of the differences has allowed me to catch my mistakes and fix them. And it's also about connecting L2 with thought: when I see L1 I know what it means -- I understand it effortlessly, without having to think about it. When I produce the L2 equivalent, I'm then connecting that language to a clear, unambiguous thought. But as you say, it's no fun arguing the same thing all the time. I've stated my argument as clear as I can and you're free to disagree. I can't prove I'm right. Edited by Cainntear on 17 April 2009 at 10:29pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| icing_death Senior Member United States Joined 5860 days ago 296 posts - 302 votes Speaks: English* | Message 13 of 27 18 April 2009 at 12:03am | IP Logged | |||||
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I prefer both ways, although L1-L2 is clearly more useful for me. As for the multiple comments condemning
translation, I disagree. People have been using translation in the early stages of language learning for centuries. I've used it myself quite successfully. It's just a stage I go through when I'm learning. If you can skip it, more power to you. Personally, I've tried, and found it much less efficient for me than a little translation. I feel that the current trend of non-translation passive methods (10,000 sentences, L-R method, etc) are so popular because people are under the impression that they are less work. Are they really less work? I've done many experiments on myself and found passive learning not to work well for me. I wonder if these learners are checking their progress, and if they are comparing it with non-passive methods. I would guess that passive methods are the best choice for less than half the population, although I could be wrong. I suspect another reason for the popularity of these methods: they really push the silent(non-conversation) period idea, which is probably very attractive to the typical internet language learner. The learner is actually encouraged to hide out as long as possible and learn passively, which fits the personality of many internet users. I feel that this is dangerous, since it encourages reclusive behavior, which may make the learner even more fearful of talking, or at least less encouraged to talk. To me there is no substitute for learning to speak as soon as possible. The first skill that I can learn to a useful level is conversation. I learn it, then use it to help me learn the other skills. It seems terribly inefficient for me to hold back until I learn to read or listen to movies/TV well enough to really understand. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| charlmartell Super Polyglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6243 days ago 286 posts - 298 votes Speaks: French, English, German, Luxembourgish*, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, Dutch, Italian, Latin, Ancient Greek Studies: Mandarin, Japanese | Message 14 of 27 18 April 2009 at 12:29am | IP Logged | |||||
And there was I thinking that I never used to... was the opposite of I always used to.... Weird! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6438 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 15 of 27 18 April 2009 at 12:41am | IP Logged | |||||
What are you doing? Stop it! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Javi Senior Member Spain Joined 5980 days ago 419 posts - 548 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 16 of 27 18 April 2009 at 2:30am | IP Logged | |||||
As I said in another thread, I don't think that L1->L2 flash cards involve true translation. It is rather rote memorisation of short sentences in the target language using the L1 part as a trigger. In the end it's not that different from what I do, which is reading aloud my not so short sentences, because I also end up almost memorising them. Nothing surprising, that's what SRS is about actually. I say it is not true translation because if it was you'd run into troubles. I can see at least two potential problems: 1) As you progress you learn different ways to say the same thing. That complicates a lot the making of the cards, unless you relay on memorisation. 2) Translating leads to unidiomatic expressions. Non professional translators do that all the time even when they translate to their own native language, let alone to a foreign language. I myself produce crap Spanish when translating from English. I have trouble with passives, gerunds and so one. So, If you avoid those unidiomatic expressions is because you are neither translating nor producing, you are recalling a memorised sentence, nothing to do with the spontaneous production of new sentences that only happens in conversation or when you think or write. Yes, thinking and writing is also active. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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