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How Broadcasters Say "Beijing" | ||
Tags: Pronunciation | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7156 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes  20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 17 of 37 18 August 2008 at 9:51am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I agree that loanwords and foreign names usually get mangled to greater or lesser degrees. Interpreting mispronunciation of foreign names or loanwords as a mark of deliberate cultural insensitivity seems fairly harsh if not confrontational or indicative of political correctness. I wonder if Germans would find it worthwhile to get offended when hearing the English pronunciation of "Berlin" or "Volkswagen". I've never encountered a native English speaker tear his/her hair out when foreigners mispronounce English words or names Certainly I don't think that the foreign speaker would do so just to spite English-speakers. If that were true, then that'd rather petty on the foreign speaker's part. In addition, words such as "laissez-faire", "Urheimat", "troika", "coffee", "goulash" and "tomato" sound rather different from their native or original forms but saying or expressing these forms nowadays in ways that are closer to their source in the name of "correctness" or appeasing purists may sound incongruous or even pompous. (e.g. imagine an English-speaker trying to turn back the clock and describe that red fruit as a "tomate" (Spanish source) or "tomatl" (the Aztec source that was borrowed by the Spaniards) instead of as a "tomato") 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7156 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 18 of 37 18 August 2008 at 10:12am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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When it comes to Beijing, one could argue that because of tones saying Beijing is incorrect since we're not accounting for those tones.
On this matter of being a "good guest", there's also the side of being a "good host". When I meet foreigners, I don't chide them for speaking English in a way that sounds different from what I'm used to. I actually learned that that kind of behaviour was often bad manners. If the foreigner is genuinely concerned about "getting things right", then he/she will get better at learning the target culture or language. However in the interest of tolerance and understanding, I as a native speaker cannot be coercive or insistent about that point since that detracts from the greater goal of maintaining friendship or acquaintance. I could only be nit-picky if the other person asks for it, or if what he/she is saying hinders communication and leads to genuine misunderstandings. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6550 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 19 of 37 18 August 2008 at 10:33am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I'm surprised you haven't, because there are many. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7156 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 20 of 37 18 August 2008 at 11:27am | IP Logged | ||||||||
It's true. I haven't met native speakers of English in person who get angry or confrontational at mispronunciation of English by foreigners. What I have seen are native-speakers (more like snobs) looking down upon the pronunciation of native speakers who speak different variants or dialects of English. (e.g. Canadians mocking Americans from the Deep South, Britons mocking Canadians, American whites mocking American blacks) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| jstele Bilingual Senior Member United States Joined 6655 days ago 186 posts - 194 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Korean* | Message 21 of 37 18 August 2008 at 9:31pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I don't stalk people online to look for things I can nitpick on their posts. You don't try to understand me at all. If my posts are so offensive to you, why don't you ignore them? I never said that average people should get all loan words right. You're so tiresome, especially your haughty, imperious manner. I knew you'd be on the lookout for my posts so that you can pick at whatever I'm saying. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| chelovek Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6087 days ago 413 posts - 461 votes 5 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Russian | Message 22 of 37 18 August 2008 at 10:45pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
With the case of uneducated southerners or uneducated American blacks, I'd say the issue is mainly the fact that they are speaking (very) bad English, not just "a different variant". Although they are speaking a dialect that functions fine within their own circles, the fact remains that the dialect is also equivalent to a terrible form of English. Being uneducated is generally a socially undesirable trait in and of itself, but I think the biggest problem is the behavior that sometimes accompanies such uneducated English speakers. Poverty, a lack of education, and certain negative cultural traits are ideal breeding grounds for crime and all sorts of idiotic behavior. Surely there are plenty of good-hearted, hard-working uneducated blacks/southerners, but the ones that stick out the most are the morons and criminals. So, not only are they speaking a bad form of English, but the groups that speak such dialects have members that are notorious for undesirable behavior.You meet someone that speaks ebonics and you naturally will lump them with ebonics-speaking criminals. You meet a poor country guy that speaks a Southern dialect and you assume he's a KKK member. So...in those cases, I think it's related more to the associations that the dialect has, rather than the dialect itself. I think a better example would be the versions of English spoken in Pakistan and India. From a technical standpoint, they speak English as well as any educated American, but the standard accent still tends to draw some level of mockery or teasing. Perhaps it's just a matter of something being aesthetically displeasing. Or maybe it's because people always associate the Indian accent with Apu from The Simpsons. My overall point is that I think when people are exceptionally discriminatory against certain dialect-speakers, it's usually got other causes behind it. Oh, and lastly, you should be aware that Americans are NOT the only people who have such linguistic prejudices. I'd bet that every group of language speakers has some type of prejudice or unfair views against a given out-group. In fact, I find that most English speakers are constant victims of this abroad, where people will switch to English the second they hear our English accent in their language. I know there are many francophones who have this "It's better for me to butcher English than for you to speak imperfect French" attitude. All in all, I don't think Americans are any more or less guilty than any other nation as far as "language sins". Edited by chelovek on 18 August 2008 at 10:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| joan.carles Bilingual Pentaglot Senior Member Canada Joined 6333 days ago 332 posts - 342 votes Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*, French, EnglishC1, EnglishC2, Mandarin Studies: Hungarian, Russian, Georgian | Message 23 of 37 18 August 2008 at 11:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Frankly, if now we all had to learn how each and every foreign place name is pronounced in its native language we
would have a hard time trying to remember the phonetics of all the languages of the earth. Instead of Beijing, which is quite easy, imagine how to pronounce a name of a Xhosa town or a village in Dagestan. Let´s leave the correct pronounciation of Beijing for the Chinese people and let them pronounce San Francisco their own way. I think people should be more offended at other more serious matters than this, If not, something´s wrong or as someone said before, people is too bored. Ok, now you people try and pronounce Zaragoza. And a warning to Southamericans, Zaragoza is not the same as Saragosa ;) Edited by joan.carles on 18 August 2008 at 11:31pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6550 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 24 of 37 19 August 2008 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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The Hungarian guy who works in front of me takes (a little) offense at how we're pronouncing Georgia (the country, that is). He told me the the correct pronunciation. Not even close.
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