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A continuation of the endless I/O talk | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6674 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 17 of 126 27 November 2008 at 3:19am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
Two points: 1-I reject the value of the copyrighted systems, because I think knowledge must be free, but we are not talking about this. 2-I am not talking about copyrighted systems, but every method. 3-When I talk about method, it can be several combinations or techniques. Maybe the best way you can tackle your language learning is changing from one method to another every week. 4-You have enough good methods. Talking about intrinsic qualities of methods is a waste of time. If people use: -Pimsleur, Assimil, FSI, Michael Thomas, LIYC, Rosseta Stone, Berlitz,...or -LR method, Shadowing and scriptorium and so on and don't quit, these people are using a good method, whatever method they use. And yes, I think the value of a particular method as opposed to others is reduced to subjective factors and the marketing ability to fool people into thinking that their "system" has special properties. This is not a moral judgment, because people can sincerely belief that their system has magic properties. No method has "special properties". It all boils down to listen, speak, read and write and in the long run we have only native materials, native speakers and no any specific method. Regarding learning languages, everything else is accessory. Is this accessory stuff useless? No. Regarding motivational values this accessory stuff is very important, because here underlies its REINFORCING power. Marketing (commercial or not) can generate this properties, sales rep personality traits (including Arguelles,Simiuteratu and followers), testimonies and their personality and activism, customer personality and psychological traits and so on. This is why I say: if your method have input and output, intensity and time is the most important factor. The best method is the method you don't give up. If you don't quit your method, it's due to the fact this method is reinforcing for you. If it's reinforcing for you, you will be happier, you will study more time, with more intensity. In the long run, this is the most important factor. Edited by slucido on 27 November 2008 at 3:28am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Leopejo Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6108 days ago 675 posts - 724 votes Speaks: Italian*, Finnish*, English Studies: French, Russian | Message 18 of 126 27 November 2008 at 4:00am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
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slucido, your point is perfectly clear. You have repeated it quite a lot of times. I was still in the forum before a long pause (April?) and you were saying the same things.
And your point, in my quite humble and certainly inexperienced opinion, is wrong. But it's good that people disagree on something, it makes life less boring. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6010 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 19 of 126 27 November 2008 at 4:40am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
But what is it reinforcing? If it's reinforcing inappropriate and unnatural patterns it is clearly not an effective learning technique.
As has been pointed out by several people, what you are talking about does not come under the definition of "a method". Try and redefine it if you want, but we will continue to use the accepted standard terminology.
No hablo de "esta gente", hablo de "este metodo". Sé el problema de "gente", y esta es diferente. In your original message you wrote "this methods" three times -- a consistent error. You were using the plural s, so it can't have been a simple error in translation or in agreement. In a later message you wrote "belief" where it should have been "believe". Again, this is an error arising from the phonetic differences between English and Spanish. OK, so I was wrong to talk about "learning from paper" and I should have said "purely on paper". But this is what Volte was saying: the methods (classical definition, not your personal definition) result in errors that mark you out as an Iberian (or other hispanohablante). The fact that these common errors exist in people who learn in myriad different ways indicates that there are particular problems that must be actively addressed for particular groups of learners -- problems that do not simply melt away with enough input and output. There are parts of language that do come simply with exposure, and a good method identifies what needs to be taught and what doesn't. It's not a terrible mistake -- it's a fundamental mistake. In fact I'd say it's what we call a fossilised error -- something you've done so long it's practically impossible to fix. Edited by Cainntear on 27 November 2008 at 4:43am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6674 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 20 of 126 27 November 2008 at 6:11am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
Interesting. You have and easy option: don't read this thread and not answer anything. If you and other people answer me, you are reinforcing my behavior and I will follow the thread endlessly. You have two options: -Extinction: If I don't get any answer, I will stop. -Punishment: you can get the administrator send off me.
This is an example of useless answer. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Leopejo Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6108 days ago 675 posts - 724 votes Speaks: Italian*, Finnish*, English Studies: French, Russian | Message 21 of 126 27 November 2008 at 6:19am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
I chose the first option back in April and avoided your posts. Let me comment once after 7 months! I don't advocate punishment to anybody else than spammers and Bacchanalian. So you are welcome to repeat the same point over and over and treating the rest of the forum as idiots who don't get your points, if it pleases you.
I was giving my point of view. I wouldn't call it useless, unless all the forum agrees that my posts are useless and I'd better find another place. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6674 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 22 of 126 27 November 2008 at 6:40am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
Reinforcement is measured by the results: increased behavior. If you reinforce whatever method with input and output in your target language, you will succeed.
I am using the standard terminology. I am using different focus. If you use methodology X, but this methodology X is deadly boring for you, you will fail. It doesn't matter zealots or sales rep say otherwise.
No hablo de "esta gente", hablo de "este metodo". Sé el problema de "gente", y esta es diferente. In your original message you wrote "this methods" three times -- a consistent error. You were using the plural s, so it can't have been a simple error in translation or in agreement. In a later message you wrote "belief" where it should have been "believe". Again, this is an error arising from the phonetic differences between English and Spanish. [QUOTE] These mistakes are due to the fact I write quickly in a foreign language. Even in my own language I make mistakes if I write quickly, like you.
:-O))))) I am scared!!!! Those mistakes can be corrected writing slowly and reviewing what I write. On the other hand, those mistakes you are talking about can be corrected with a magic method: repetition and more repetition.... If you review techniques and methods like shadowing, LR method, scriptorium or whatever, what you will find all boils down? You will find always the same: endless repetition and more repetition Nothing new, special or magic at all.... For example, several gurus claim that learning a language starting by reading is a bad method....but they are WRONG. If your main motivation is reading books, this is your first and best method, because if you start with their magic, incredible methods, you will fail miserably and you will quit. If you begin with what's reinforcing for you, when you have build enough motivation, you will begin with other language aspects. Sales rep, gurus and zealots are very dangerous. Don't follow them. Follow your feelings. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6674 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 23 of 126 27 November 2008 at 6:42am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
If you say someone is wrong and you don't explain why, your wasting your time and mine. Maybe more your time. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Leopejo Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6108 days ago 675 posts - 724 votes Speaks: Italian*, Finnish*, English Studies: French, Russian | Message 24 of 126 27 November 2008 at 6:45am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
I tried back then. Many users have tried and are trying now. And yes, we were probably wasting our times. P.S. "you're" Edited by Leopejo on 27 November 2008 at 6:45am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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