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The classic debate: Input vs output | ||
Tags: Flash cards | Anki | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| ihoop Newbie United States Joined 4609 days ago 29 posts - 66 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Mandarin | Message 1 of 8 04 July 2013 at 4:30pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Hey all,
My studies have been intensifying over the last couple months, which has resulted in me having a lot of questions! I have been posting a lot on this forum and have been really grateful for the wonderful responses and help that I have gotten. Here is something else I have been thinking about that I wanted to get some input on from people who have been down the path of learning a language to a high level. Lately, I have been putting a lot of example sentences into Anki. I have been following the method of putting an example sentence on the first side of a card. If I can read it and understand the "meaning" of the sentence and all the vocabulary in a sentence I will mark it as "good". With this method I am able to review/expose myself to around 200 sentences a day in a relatively short period of time. I feel like the benefits of this method are less obvious in the short run but extremely helpful in the long run. The only problem is, I really like a lot of these sentences and would like to get them into my active vocabulary. A lot of them I can comprehend but would not be able to produce myself during conversation. Because of this, I have thought about the idea of doing output based flashcards for my sentences. The problem is that I think I would not be able to expose myself to as much new language each day with output based flashcards (they would be more time consuming). Also, I will admit that there is a part of me that feels like doing output based flashcards is an unnatural way of learning a language, and possibly harmful in the long run. So, I have come here to ask about other peoples experiences. Who here has done tons of input based flashcards? output? How did it help you in the long run? Any advice? Thanks in advance for the replies. -Ian 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6596 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 2 of 8 04 July 2013 at 7:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
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In my opinion, Q:L1; A:L2 cards are not output. Better try cloze deletion.
You can also make your own exercises from authentic texts. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| BaronBill Triglot Senior Member United States HowToLanguages.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4688 days ago 335 posts - 594 votes Speaks: English*, French, German Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, Persian | Message 3 of 8 04 July 2013 at 7:44pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm assuming by input flashcards you are referring to L2->L1 and by output you are referring to L1->L2. If so, than I can certainly speak to my experiences using exclusively output flashcards.
From the very beginning, I decided to use flashcards to improve active skills, relying on books, podcasts, and radio for input. All of my flashcards have always been output based and therefore, my active skills are quite good. The key is to make sure that all of your L2 sentences are absolutely grammatically correct. The only way output based flashcards can be damaging in the long run is if you fossilize incorrect grammar and/or vocabulary. So, make sure that all of your L2 comes from reliable sources like dictionaries, books, textbooks, and/or native speakers. If I come across a colloquialism or idiomatic expression, I label the flashcard as such. It may seem unnatural as far as "learning a language", but nothing will get your active skills up and running as fast as output based flashcards (my opinion of course). The danger comes from ignoring input altogether. If you start to use output based flashcards, make sure you are supplementing with plenty of input from other sources. It is easy to ignore input when you see your active skills improve quickly. Don't let that happen to you. Ultimately it comes down to your goals. With German, my goal was to "speak". I concentrated on active skills early and often and now I am catching up on my input. Many people (Iverson springs to mind) don't seem to care about active skills early on as their goals may be passive skills first and foremost. I hope this helps. Edited by BaronBill on 04 July 2013 at 7:45pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6596 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 4 of 8 04 July 2013 at 9:25pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Another danger is being able to translate but not to make your own sentences.
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4846 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 5 of 8 05 July 2013 at 2:46am | IP Logged | |||||
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I've never found the right formula myself for output-targeted flashcards. With cloze deletion, I've found that either (a) I always get the right answer because the rest of the sentence makes it easy for me to guess it, or (b) the sentence is not clear enough for me to guess the answer, so I always get it wrong.
Most of the time, it is usually an "(a)" situation, but even in those cases I've found that when I'm speaking to someone and I need to make a sentence using the word, I can't recall the word easily. I've heard that the solution is to add more cards with more sentences using the word. But as I've found out recently, you really need to be careful about putting "bad" sentences into your Anki decks. You need to make sure that the sentences are both grammatically correct and natural, and to me that takes an extreme amount of time. Recently I've started trying to write every day to improve my output, and I find that to be more interesting to me than trying to practice output in Anki. (In fact, I may move away from recall entirely in the future when using Anki.) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4532 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 6 of 8 05 July 2013 at 9:30am | IP Logged | |||||
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I have been using Anki for just over a year to learn German.
When learning words I use both L1 -> L2 and L2 -> L1. I find the L1 --> L2 very useful for making words active in memory. L2 -> L1 is useful, but doesn't seem to leave the same sort of active trace in memory. However, while I use sentences a lot, nearly all are L2 --> L1. My problem with L1 --> L2 sentences is that unless the phrase is a sort of standard idiom, I'd prefer to learn how to say it 'naturally' rather than as a fixed expression. Nearly every L1 sentence can be translated in multiple ways in your L2, so I personally don't like the idea of learning one fixed translation. The other reason is simply practical. I do about one hour a day of Anki. It takes a lot longer to learn a fixed phrase than a word (say x2-3 as much). I so I'd prefer to learn x2-3 the number of words to build up vocabulary, rather than learn sentences. Edited by patrickwilken on 05 July 2013 at 9:32am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| BaronBill Triglot Senior Member United States HowToLanguages.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4688 days ago 335 posts - 594 votes Speaks: English*, French, German Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, Persian | Message 7 of 8 05 July 2013 at 4:29pm | IP Logged | |||||
Hi Patrick. I agree that ceratinly almost every L1 sentence can be translated multiple ways. No doubt about it. However, I find it useful to learn one basic way to say these expressions. Everybody knows that people are creatures of habit. We all use some basic expressions that, although could be phrased different ways, we always tend to prefer one construction over others. Once engaged in conversation on a daily basis, you will "naturally" pickup other options for phrasing these expressions. To me, having one set way to say what I am trying to say is ideal. Especially if I have drilled that phrase enought imes that it comes out naturally and (dare I say it?) fluently. I can definitely appreciate wanting to learn different "natural" phrasings, but to me, one has to start somewhere...
This is also another area that I think we will have to agree to disagree on. All the vocabulary in the world does not good without grammar and sentence structure. Don't get me wrong, I am a vocabulary junkie for sure. However, I put significant time and effort into sentence drilling and output based sentences in ANKI. You are absolutely right that it takes 2-3x as long to learn a sentence than a word. However, if you are using good sentences, you could be learning 2 or 3 vocabulary words as well as an important sentence structure in each sentence. To me, this not only evens out the vocabulary, but also throws in that ever important grammar piece. Obviously, there is no right or wrong answer to any of this. I just wanted to comment on my own experiences. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4532 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 8 of 8 05 July 2013 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
Sure. I think whatever works for you is good method. ;) I think part of it is how fast/important it is for you to start using the language to communicate. For me I am happy to gradually build up my level by doing Anki, reading books and watching movies. Because of this I am B2 now in reading, but probably more high B1 for spoken/written. That reminds me though: with regard to title of this post, and the input/output debate. Anki itself is very useful for getting structured input, but it really shines when you couple it with both input from reading and listening (films etc). 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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