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Luso
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Portugal
Joined 6066 days ago
819 posts - 1812 votes 
Speaks: Portuguese*, French, EnglishC2, GermanB1, Italian, Spanish
Studies: Sanskrit, Arabic (classical)
| Message 17 of 26 17 December 2013 at 2:58am | IP Logged |
I think Cavesa's comment is very wise: if it's not anyone's native language, it's better not to do it, and develop the child's predisposition in other ways.
This whole question is quite interesting, because up to now I'd never thought of it this way. I know quite a few households where the parents have different mother languages, and the option was always (literally) the same: each parent would speak with the child in his/her native language without exception, period. Of course, the dinner table is a special case, with Portuguese prevailing.
1 person has voted this message useful
| culebrilla
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4002 days ago
246 posts - 436 votes
Speaks: Spanish
| Message 18 of 26 17 December 2013 at 3:04am | IP Logged |
Luso wrote:
I think Cavesa's comment is very wise: if it's not anyone's native language, it's better not to do it, and develop the child's predisposition in other ways.
This whole question is quite interesting, because up to now I'd never thought of it this way. I know quite a few households where the parents have different mother languages, and the option was always (literally) the same: each parent would speak with the child in his/her native language without exception, period. Of course, the dinner table is a special case, with Portuguese prevailing. |
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I honestly would say that there are some exceptions. There are non-native speakers that definitely would be *equivalent* to native speakers. Think of people with good pronunciation/accent and good grammar like Luca and Mr. Simcott. Also, if the child has a lot of other language sources, they will probably be fine in their language development. A non-native language speaker is not a non-native speaker is not a non-language speaker. There are A2 speakers that try to teach their kids a language and there are C2 speakers that are ballers at the language. Not everybody is in the same category.
2 persons have voted this message useful
| Luso
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Portugal
Joined 6066 days ago
819 posts - 1812 votes
Speaks: Portuguese*, French, EnglishC2, GermanB1, Italian, Spanish
Studies: Sanskrit, Arabic (classical)
| Message 19 of 26 17 December 2013 at 4:15am | IP Logged |
Ok, "native" was a bit too strong on my part. But I still believe it must come naturally.
Anyway, I don't think it's healthy for someone to speak to his/her child in a foreign language. The only exception I find reasonable is when this foreign language is the one used in the country you're living in.
If there's a level of discomfort (however slight), the natural bond parent/child can be affected in some way. And that far outweighs the potential gain of an extra language from a tender age IMHO.
1 person has voted this message useful
| culebrilla
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4002 days ago
246 posts - 436 votes
Speaks: Spanish
| Message 20 of 26 17 December 2013 at 1:14pm | IP Logged |
Luso wrote:
Ok, "native" was a bit too strong on my part. But I still believe it must come naturally.
Anyway, I don't think it's healthy for someone to speak to his/her child in a foreign language. The only exception I find reasonable is when this foreign language is the one used in the country you're living in.
If there's a level of discomfort (however slight), the natural bond parent/child can be affected in some way. And that far outweighs the potential gain of an extra language from a tender age IMHO. |
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It depends. For example, my father has spoken English for over 40 years. (in-country living, not counting the time in his third world country where he was born) He is the only person that I personally know that has native-level ability in English while learning it as a foreign language. And I know a lot of FOB families. His English is distinctly better than Luca's, for example. (Not a fair comparison, Luca hasn't lived abroad much in English speaking countries, is young, and admittedly has a very high level of English)
On a much, much lower level, I feel VERY at ease speaking Spanish. It is automatic and I've probably spent more time on this one language than the vast majority of howtolearnanylanguage posters have spent on languages combined. Since I'm not as phonetically talented as the aforementioned people, I would have to meet with more speech therapists for slight accent reduction, but there are ways to get a child exposed to native speech.(like a native-Spanish speaking wife)
I wholeheartedly agree that it is always better to have a native speaker teaching a language to a child, preferably somebody with native-level grammar, slang, and most importantly, a loving parent. But foreign languages CAN become "unforeign" and may be more native than the person's native language. I would bet a lot of money that my father is more comfortable speaking English than our native language, especially since he only speaks the native language occasionally at home and VERY rarely writes or reads in it.
1 person has voted this message useful
| beano
Diglot
Senior Member
United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 4627 days ago
1049 posts - 2152 votes
Speaks: English*, German
Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian
| Message 21 of 26 17 December 2013 at 9:24pm | IP Logged |
culebrilla wrote:
beano wrote:
culebrilla wrote:
Edit: You really need to create a "need" for the child to speak the target language. If you are that German
immigrant in the US and are married to an English speaker, unless you have a lot of trips back to
Germany/Austria/Switzerland or native German speakers around you in the US, your kids probably won't
speak German.
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But the children would develop an excellent passive understanding of German and could probably speak it if
they were in a situation where they absolutely had to. That's a hell of a lot better than nothing and if they did
eventually move to a German-speaking environment they would pick up oral skills at lightening speed.
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I have a LOT of second-generation immigrant friends that have complete understanding of their family
languages but they never did learn how to speak. This is a sample of probably about 70 people or more. I
literally have never met a receptive bilingual that decided to learn how to speak, write, read, and become very
proficient in the language--not in my family nor outside it.
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But if they moved to a country where the family language was spoken they would be up to speed in no time.
There must be a reasonable chance in a bilingual marriage that the family will change language setting at
some point so it makes sense to have the kids prepared.
1 person has voted this message useful
| culebrilla
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4002 days ago
246 posts - 436 votes
Speaks: Spanish
| Message 22 of 26 18 December 2013 at 1:31am | IP Logged |
beano wrote:
culebrilla wrote:
beano wrote:
culebrilla wrote:
Edit: You really need to create a "need" for the child to speak the target language. If you are that German
immigrant in the US and are married to an English speaker, unless you have a lot of trips back to
Germany/Austria/Switzerland or native German speakers around you in the US, your kids probably won't
speak German.
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But the children would develop an excellent passive understanding of German and could probably speak it if
they were in a situation where they absolutely had to. That's a hell of a lot better than nothing and if they did
eventually move to a German-speaking environment they would pick up oral skills at lightening speed.
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I have a LOT of second-generation immigrant friends that have complete understanding of their family
languages but they never did learn how to speak. This is a sample of probably about 70 people or more. I
literally have never met a receptive bilingual that decided to learn how to speak, write, read, and become very
proficient in the language--not in my family nor outside it.
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But if they moved to a country where the family language was spoken they would be up to speed in no time.
There must be a reasonable chance in a bilingual marriage that the family will change language setting at
some point so it makes sense to have the kids prepared.
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What percentage of those 70 or whatever people that I know have done that? 0%. Possible, yes. In theory, doesn't happen often at all.
1 person has voted this message useful
| beano
Diglot
Senior Member
United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 4627 days ago
1049 posts - 2152 votes
Speaks: English*, German
Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian
| Message 23 of 26 18 December 2013 at 1:25pm | IP Logged |
culebrilla wrote:
beano wrote:
culebrilla wrote:
beano wrote:
culebrilla wrote:
Edit: You really need to create a "need" for the child to speak the target language. If you are that German
immigrant in the US and are married to an English speaker, unless you have a lot of trips back to
Germany/Austria/Switzerland or native German speakers around you in the US, your kids probably won't
speak German.
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But the children would develop an excellent passive understanding of German and could probably speak it if
they were in a situation where they absolutely had to. That's a hell of a lot better than nothing and if they did
eventually move to a German-speaking environment they would pick up oral skills at lightening speed.
|
|
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I have a LOT of second-generation immigrant friends that have complete understanding of their family
languages but they never did learn how to speak. This is a sample of probably about 70 people or more. I
literally have never met a receptive bilingual that decided to learn how to speak, write, read, and become very
proficient in the language--not in my family nor outside it.
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But if they moved to a country where the family language was spoken they would be up to speed in no time.
There must be a reasonable chance in a bilingual marriage that the family will change language setting at
some point so it makes sense to have the kids prepared.
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What percentage of those 70 or whatever people that I know have done that? 0%. Possible, yes. In theory, doesn't happen often at all. |
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Some forms of immigration will be one-way, particularly when families move from a poor country to a more affluent society. But I know quite a few European families where the mother and father come from different countries and they have moved from one to another
and back again.
Edited by beano on 18 December 2013 at 1:26pm
1 person has voted this message useful
| culebrilla
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4002 days ago
246 posts - 436 votes
Speaks: Spanish
| Message 24 of 26 18 December 2013 at 2:25pm | IP Logged |
beano wrote:
culebrilla wrote:
beano wrote:
culebrilla wrote:
beano wrote:
culebrilla wrote:
Edit: You really need to create a "need" for the child to speak the target language. If you are that German
immigrant in the US and are married to an English speaker, unless you have a lot of trips back to
Germany/Austria/Switzerland or native German speakers around you in the US, your kids probably won't
speak German.
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But the children would develop an excellent passive understanding of German and could probably speak it if
they were in a situation where they absolutely had to. That's a hell of a lot better than nothing and if they did
eventually move to a German-speaking environment they would pick up oral skills at lightening speed.
|
|
|
I have a LOT of second-generation immigrant friends that have complete understanding of their family
languages but they never did learn how to speak. This is a sample of probably about 70 people or more. I
literally have never met a receptive bilingual that decided to learn how to speak, write, read, and become very
proficient in the language--not in my family nor outside it.
|
|
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But if they moved to a country where the family language was spoken they would be up to speed in no time.
There must be a reasonable chance in a bilingual marriage that the family will change language setting at
some point so it makes sense to have the kids prepared.
|
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What percentage of those 70 or whatever people that I know have done that? 0%. Possible, yes. In theory, doesn't happen often at all. |
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Some forms of immigration will be one-way, particularly when families move from a poor country to a more affluent society. But I know quite a few European families where the mother and father come from different countries and they have moved from one to another
and back again. |
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Things are probably just different in the ol' USA, since we are, Latin American neighbors and Quebec notwithstanding, many thousands of kilometers away from other non-English speaking areas.
1 person has voted this message useful
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