Italian, German, or Spanish? (Advice Center) Language Learning Forum

Italian, German, or Spanish?
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corjine
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Studies: Italian

Message 9 of 19

11 December 2013 at 8:34pm | IP Logged

Yeah. I've been trying to learn through songs/films more than the courses, but it's
hard.

Thanks for the post!
1 person has voted this message useful

emk
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Message 10 of 19

11 December 2013 at 9:08pm | IP Logged

corjine wrote:

-Duolingo daily. The lessons are becoming much more picky, and much more annoying to
deal with. This is probably one of my main problems, since when I can't get through a
lesson, I get frustrated, and then I just throw my phone (jk). It does get frustrating
when I'm off by a small detail or don't understand a particle. This is probably my
brain being a 2 year old, not being able to understand RIGHT. NOW. Things take time
and effort, and my lack of patience is a huge barrier to my language learning.

Ah, yes. That problem. :-)

You might enjoy following Rapp's log. He's doing the AJATT Neutrino program, and he has some really interesting observations about these issues:

Rapp wrote:

The critical thing is to do something in Spanish frequently. But no particular "something" is important enough to suffer through. There's always a different "something" I could do that would be fun. So I just go do that instead. Easy peasy.

In fact, much of the advice on the AJATT site is aimed at smart people with perfectionist tendencies. In particular, this article might help:

Quote:

Learning a language isn’t hard. At all. In any way. What’s hard is taking all the mental beatings you give yourself. Stop the beatings and it’s all smooth sailing. In fact, it becomes so easy that you’ll be using “learning” (getting used to) a language as your escape activity, to get away from and out of doing other stuff.

Here's my personal take on the subject:

1. Time in contact with the language counts more than just about anything else. This includes both the time you spend with "comprehensible input" (which means anything you can understand a lot of if you're paying attention), time spent being curious about grammar and vocabulary, and time spent actually talking to people.

2. It's OK to blow stuff off: Anything that's actually worth learning will show up again soon, and maybe it will be easier then. Why? Because the only reason to learn something is because it comes up fairly often. If it's rare, you can always learn it later. If it comes up all the time, it will eventually become so familiar that it seems perfectly obvious. So if something's frustrating, blow it off and go look for something more enjoyable.

3. A somewhat inefficient language learning technique that you find addictive is better than a highly efficient technique that you hate. Why? Because you can do something you hate for maybe a hundred hours, but that's just not enough time to get good at a language. We've got people here who learn languages by reading comics, by watching sports, by button-holing random strangers and by doing all sorts of crazy things. :-)

So if Duolingo is bringing out your perfectionist tendencies, either learn to let stuff go, or find an approach that allows you to chill, ingest lots of interesting Italian, and follow your curiosity wherever it goes. And put a little faith in your brain: Given the right stimuli, it can still do at least 80% of the work naturally. Do toddlers beat themselves up mentally because they got the past tense wrong?

corjine wrote:

It's just not as easy as it was at the beginning! That's my problem, I realize as I
type this out! I coasted through high school in AP classes doing little-no work,
because it was too goddamned easy. Same with almost everything else in my life. Now
that I think about it......this is the first time I've really been challenged to LEARN.
No wonder I'm having difficulty.....

How do I get past this? I have no self-discipline, whatsoever.

A few ways to deal with a lack of self discipline:

1. Keep a Seinfeld calendar.
2. Join the consistency thread.
3. If the first two fail, and you need a nuclear option, go put some money on the line over at Beeminder. They've thought deeply about motivation, they're really nice folks, and they'll be happy to help keep you on track. Plus they rock for stuff you can't do every day.
4. Find ways to study Italian which are so fun that they're don't really require very much willpower.

It's possible to get much better at doing things that happen slowly, over time, with lots of ups and downs. The secret is mostly to keep at it and do what you can, and to learn to take failure in stride.

I'll leave you with one more Khatzumoto link, because this really is a topic near to his heart:

Quote:

1. Things take time, but
2. You cannot be idle during that time
3. You have to do your part so that nature can do its part

And yeah, this is a somewhat abstract post, more about dealing with your frustration than about language-learning specifics. That's because I think frustration is your biggest obstacle right now, and once you figure out how to deal with that, you'll have no problem figuring out how to make lots of progress.

EDIT:

corjine wrote:

Yeah. I've been trying to learn through songs/films more than the courses, but it's hard.

If you would like to learn using native materials, but they're still too hard, good options include: Listening/Reading with interesting books, parallel texts, subs2srs (if you can find an awesome movie with accurate bilingual subs and get subs2srs to actually work) and using Italian versions of stuff you know by heart in English. If you do work with native materials, it certainly doesn't hurt to spend a portion of your time looking up stuff that makes no sense, either in a dictionary or a grammar book.

Below a certain level, really easy parallel texts with Italian audio are probably the most pleasant alternative to native materials. You can find these in Assimil courses and elsewhere.

Basically, if one choice causes undue suffering, you have lots of other choices. :-)

Edited by emk on 11 December 2013 at 9:22pm
5 persons have voted this message useful

Serpent
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Speaks: Russian*, English, Finnish^C1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
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Message 11 of 19

11 December 2013 at 9:26pm | IP Logged

It's more about the attitude, really. Don't be a slave to Duolingo or any other course. But it's not an either-or thing: there's no need to just suddenly get out of the safe bubble. Just leave it every now and then, gradually spending less and less time in it.

Also, the techniques are generally more important than the specific materials you use (as long as they fit the materials).

As for songs, do you have any that you love so much that you'd be willing to look up MANY words? This can be very beneficial at the intermediate level. And be sure to read the article about using music, on wikia.
1 person has voted this message useful

BaronBill
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335 posts - 594 votes

Speaks: English*, French, German
Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, Persian

Message 12 of 19

11 December 2013 at 9:48pm | IP Logged

My first impulse is always to vote for German (the language love of my life) but in your case, I will have to agree with EMK, Serpent and the others... Follow your heart.
1 person has voted this message useful

Serpent
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Message 13 of 19

11 December 2013 at 10:22pm | IP Logged

I recommend the "exercise of cruelty", as described by Coelho, for stopping the mental beatings.
1 person has voted this message useful

corjine
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Speaks: English*
Studies: Italian

Message 14 of 19

11 December 2013 at 11:27pm | IP Logged

What a fantastic post, emk! Thank you so much for your suggestions and help! I will
try to keep a Seinfeld calendar, and I will be consistent with my TAC posts (bar
college, obviously). I just also L-R'd the first 5 chapters of il Piccolo Principe
(I'd do the rest, but I can't find the audio)!

Serpent, I've been using songs by Annalisa and Il Triangolo to look up lyrics and learn
new words/grammar structures. I find it much more than listening to Pimsleur.

BarronBill, I have a feeling that German will be next on the list. :)

Serpent, I'll have to pass on that exercise of cruelty. I have very OCD-like
tendencies (not officially diagnosed, but my therapist and I have agreed that I
definitely have OCD traits present), and that easily could turn into compulsion-like
behavior for me. Thanks, though.
1 person has voted this message useful

iguanamon
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Message 15 of 19

11 December 2013 at 11:44pm | IP Logged

Thank you, Serpent, for the kind words and recommendation. Corjine, You haven't learned your first second language yet to a high level, so I never recommend studying a next one or two in addition for learners like yourself. Unless you just want to play around with languages and have fun and you're not really serious about actually taking one to a high level- then, great, go for it!

As emk says, we all hit a wall at certain stages in learning, the main thing is to not let that wall keep you from where you want to go. You can take it down a brick at a time and get past it. Or you can let it stop you. It's your choice. I love emk's Appalachian Trail metaphor for language learners To quote Ari (and kuji- who has carried the torch with this phrase)- "It's awesomeness on toast!"

There's nothing wrong with wanderlust, or learning multiple languages simultaneously. Many people do it here successfully. Generally the people who are successful multiple simultaneous learners have taken at least one language prior to at least intermediate level. What I haven't seen in my three plus years here is a an adult monolingual, beginner, learner with more than one language under "studies", take any one of those languages to the "speaks" column. The odds will definitely be against you- if that's your goal.

corjine wrote:

...Italian: Man, I love Italian. I've been studying it for ~2 months now, and I really do like the language. That being said, it's hard for me to really, substantially stay with Italian based on a couple of factors. One, I'm starting to hit the so called "wall" and it's starting to make me dislike the language. Two, it's not as economically viable as say, German or Spanish...

Switching languages, that's a personal decision. All I can tell you is that cold, hard logic isn't as applicable as one might think when it comes to something like language learning. As human beings our emotions and feelings tend to get in the way, especially when we don't absolutely have to learn a language because our survival depends upon it. That's just how we're wired. The passion that you have for learning a language is what gets you through "the wall". That passion is what gets you to work on the language even when you don't really feel like it, but you know you must or you will lose your momentum. Your passion takes you through the rough patches and keeps you keeping on.

Your post doesn't show me a passion for Spanish or German. You will hit the same wall with both (or any other language) at some point, too. That's because they're different languages to what you are accustomed. It's not easy. It takes effort. That's why everyone doesn't do it. To learn a language to a high level (without a dire need) you need desire. You need passion. You need to be persistent and you need to be consistent. It's really that simple and that hard. Without persistence and consistency, you are doomed. Without desire and passion, "the wall" will stop you every time.

Anyone can learn a language but language learning is not for everyone. There are loads of other rewarding activities you can pursue without being able to, or have the need to, speak a foreign language. You must decide if learning any language is what you really want to do with your time. If it is, then you will have to make it happen yourself, or, be content with being a dabbler, or, do something else. Life is short.

Bottom line: I'm not saying you should stick with Italian, switch to Spanish or jump to German. Whatever you choose to do you should choose because it's what you really want to do. If you really do want to actually learn a language then start walking the Appalachian Trail. Keep on keeping on. You'll have company along the way and fellow learners to help you in your journey, but you're the one who has to put one foot in front of the other.

Edited by iguanamon on 12 December 2013 at 12:27am
4 persons have voted this message useful

corjine
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55 posts - 74 votes

Speaks: English*
Studies: Italian

Message 16 of 19

12 December 2013 at 12:42am | IP Logged

Thanks for the Appalachian metaphor. It really puts things in perspective for me. I
think I will continue with Italian, and maybe dabble in German on the side.

1 person has voted this message useful

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