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French. Skipping words in a sentence. | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| mr_intl_dj Newbie United States Joined 6684 days ago 23 posts - 24 votes Speaks: English | Message 1 of 8 14 January 2014 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hello!
When I was practicing reading sentences(with the help of audio-text). I know some of the rules with the liaisions and shortcuts like not saying "ne" in ne...pas. But came across this sentence; Je vous ai acheté quelque chose à la pâtisserie. Only one voice said all the words. Most of them it was like they were saying, Je vous "ache" quelque chose à la pâtisserie. "ache"- sounds like eng. "ash" One person said the sentence like this: Je vous acheté quelque chose à la pâtisserie. Can someone explain this me? thanks DJ 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5532 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes  Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 2 of 8 14 January 2014 at 3:50pm | IP Logged | ||
Without the recording, it's impossible for me to tell, but there are at least two things to watch for here: 1. The first "e" in acheté is normally silent, giving something like "achté". 2. The "t" is a French "t", which means it's more like an unvocalized English "d". Try holding your hand in front of your mouth and making English "t" and "d" sounds. You should feel a puff of air for the first, and not for the second. In French, neither sound has a puff of air, which can throw off listening comprehension sometimes. Keeping both those things in mind, does that make the recording any clearer? If not, feel free to post a couple of seconds of sound online somewhere for us to listen to. Edited by emk on 14 January 2014 at 3:50pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 3 of 8 14 January 2014 at 5:45pm | IP Logged | ||
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emb's explanation is basically correct but there's a bit more going on here. First of all, keep in mind that, just like
English, when French is spoken quickly words are contracted and certain sounds will become very weak or disappear.. Probably the most common example of this is the sound of the letter "e"- notice that that there is no accent - when found in the middle or the end of certain words. This sound of this letter is reduced to a barely perceptible shwa sound. So the above sentence would sound more like: J'vous ai ach'té quelqu' chos' à la pâtiss'rie The final e in pâtisserie is never pronounced. I should mention that in French songs the final -e after a consonant is often pronounced distinctlly and considered a separate syllable, especially at the end of lines. Edit: Corrected "The final ie in pâtisserie is never pronounced." to "The final e in pâtisserie is never pronounced." Edited by s_allard on 15 January 2014 at 12:15am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| sctroyenne Diglot Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5391 days ago 739 posts - 1312 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Spanish, Irish | Message 4 of 8 14 January 2014 at 5:58pm | IP Logged | ||
This is also the case with poetry and there's a whole system of rules for when the "e muet" is pronounced and when it isn't (though I don't know them off the top of my head). There are a couple of resources to learn the system of common contractions. Try the informal French and French slang tutorials at IE Languages and the Smart French series of CDs are useful as well. They're recorded interviews with French people that are played back slowly with certain contractions noted. They also come with transcripts that show dropped letters in red. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| vermillon Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4678 days ago 602 posts - 1042 votes Speaks: French*, EnglishC2, Mandarin Studies: Japanese, German | Message 5 of 8 14 January 2014 at 6:49pm | IP Logged | ||
Errr, what? I suppose you must have meant something else. @OP: without a recording, it's difficult to say, but it seems very unlikely the /t/ wouldn't be pronounced, at worst only as a stop. Also an additional note on French t: it's not only a devoiced English d, the place of articulation is actually different (and that's part of the distinctive French accent in English, and possibly conversely): the French n/t/d/s/z is dental, while in English it's alveolar => not making this distinction, imho, makes it much more difficult to pronounce aspiration in English, and to pronounce a French t devoiced. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4707 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 6 of 8 14 January 2014 at 10:14pm | IP Logged | ||
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Speaking of devoicing, I explained to my French teacher the other day she had to watch
out for me devoicing consonants word-finally - it's a typical Dutch habit but French does not do it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 7 of 8 15 January 2014 at 12:29am | IP Logged | ||
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I had forgotten that the classic example of the e muet is the ne of ne...pas, As most learners should now, informal
spoken French drops the ne completely. So, Je ne sais pas becomes Je sais pas. In fact, as the speech gets faster, the sounds tend to blend and the articulatory points will converge. So the voiced Je meeting the unvoiced sais will lead to something that one sees written like "Ch'ais pas." For those who may be interested, Québécois French has a whole series of contractions and deletions. For example, l is often deleted. The example from the OP would J' vous ai ach'té qué'qu' chos' à a pâtiss'rie. It would be better to do a proper IPA transcription, but I don't have the time. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 8 of 8 15 January 2014 at 5:00am | IP Logged | ||
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As we well know, the cause of the deletions and contractions as spoken language increases in speed is the
physiological constraints placed on the articulatory apparatus. The reason I bring this up is that it is one thing to look at how sounds are articulated in isolation and another thing to see these sounds in relation to their neighbours. For example, the t that was well described by other posters in the context of a phrase like J'ai acheté du lait. But in J'achète du lait, the t and the d converge to a sound that is sort of inbetween. To my ears the t will actually disappear in very fast French. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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