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What is your estimate of the CEFR levels? | ||
Tags: CEFR Language Levels | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5011 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes  Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 17 of 24 20 August 2014 at 12:02pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think few people dare to overestimate themselves because the exams aren't exactly cheap.
I think I hadn't underestimated my level for either of my two exams. However, I had underestimated how much are some exam results affected by the exam taking skills. It applies much more to the DELF exams than the Cambridge ones, in my opinion. Really, some of the tasks had little to do with reality or rather the usual reality. I usually speak with someone and here I was to do a 13 minutes long presentation with one or two question in the end. And the topic wasn't that good for such a lecture, it was really needed to have previous practice in long speeches just for the exam in my opinion. The Cambridge way of testing speaking skills seemed much more reasonable to me. Or for the writing part. French exams have tasks like a simple reclamation, which I would usually fit into 50-70 words, but in 250 words. And I do not think I would ever try DALF C1 before training in resumés and uther such specific genres. So, I passed my exams but I recommend everyone not to underestimate the value of test taking skills. However, I was quite entertained by a conversation of two students during the break between parts of the CAE. It was quite a passionate discussion whether the actual exam tasks were similar to the tasks in their preparatory textbook (they even showed each other which pages they are talking about) and they felt deceived because the tasks werent't even more resembling to those they had already done as a preparation. So, as a result: -I recommend anyone interested to take the exam to do so. -However, take time to prepare for it (heh, obviously my delf experience left some marks on me. I have been postponing dalf C1 for several years!) -Get a few past papers and preparatory books. -Do not join group preparatory courses, as you will pay a lot of money for learning how to do multiple choice tasks while there will be very little time to practice your active skills, especially speaking. And the courses are horribly overpriced considering their value (a friend of mine has told me a lot about her preparatory courses for cae, cpe and I think another exam of German as well) -For low levels, you can prepare for the active tasks on your own as well. It isn't hard to practice even speaking as you are mostly expected to handle common situations with more or less precisely defined vocabulary and grammar. For the higher levels, you might want to get a tutor for individual preparation. But get a good quality one, with experience. One more note: Should anything against the rules happen during your exam, don't be a coward as I was. Demand the situation to be remedied. I was to have two examinators with me at the spoken part of delf just as everyone else. I had only one because the other left the room at the beginning and returned at the end. The one I was left with wasn't an exactly good kind of a listener (I felt like speaking to a wall.) and I think having two people listening to me and grading me would have given a little bit different result. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5534 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 18 of 24 20 August 2014 at 1:06pm | IP Logged | ||
It's worth noting that the DELF and DALF are technically "diploma" exams. As I understand it, their basic structure predates the CEFR scale, and you really are expected to study for them. Some of the tasks require specific skills: The DELF B2 requires giving a presentation without notes after 30 minutes of preparation time, and the DALF C1 requires writing a synthèse, which is not something English speakers are normally asked to do. You're also required to choose an exam appropriate for your CEFR level. I actually like these exams; they're a nice stretch. The French also have the TCF, which is more of an "assessment" exam. You don't need to pick your level in advance, and apparently they try to avoid demanding specialized skills. But one major advantage of DELF/DALF is that the diploma is good for life, whereas TCF results expire after a year. I may take the TCF one of these days—one of the advantages of the exam is that they supposedly give you detailed feedback. But if you do all the sections, it's not cheap. I might take the comprehension sections, which are mandatory, and the speaking section, but skip the writing section. My French writing already passes the only standard I care about, which is that I can write long emails to in-laws, or negotiate a business deal. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Luso Hexaglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6063 days ago 819 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, French, EnglishC2, GermanB1, Italian, Spanish Studies: Sanskrit, Arabic (classical) | Message 19 of 24 20 August 2014 at 1:53pm | IP Logged | ||
I heard of this. In 2009 I went to the Alliance Française and took a test. Many written pages and a long conversation later, the teacher told me I could enroll in a C2 class. She also advised me not to try the exam unprepared (pretty standard stuff). Then she told me something new: for Portuguese students, the C2 exam is actually easier than the C1 one. That's because our school system doesn't stress much making summaries of texts, whereas the French one does. We usually develop more the interpretation side, which is apparently a skill more useful for the French C2 exam. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5264 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 20 of 24 20 August 2014 at 2:08pm | IP Logged | ||
Emk has summed up why I haven't taken the DELE (Spanish) and the CELPE-Bras (Portuguese) tests. Example- CELPE-Bras exam: Test fee- $150. Fly to Florida- $600 (Gainesville). Stay 3 days in a hotel- $300. Eat- $100. Rent a car- $150. There's also the opportunity cost of not being at home to work (self-employed). I can't justify spending $1,300 to take a test that will not serve any purpose for me in any area other than a personal evaluation of my level. Those of us who do not live in or near major metropolitan areas incur a lot of expense to take a formal test for what is, on this forum, mostly a hobby. If I could hop on the metro in the morning and be home after lunch, sure, I'd be interested. Still, for my own personal satisfaction, If such a test could be administered and proctored locally, via video conference, skype or telephone for a reasonable fee, I could be interested. Given the low numbers of people interested in these tests, the high administration costs involved would most likely not be justifiable to the testing entities. Edited by iguanamon on 20 August 2014 at 2:16pm 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Luso Hexaglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6063 days ago 819 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, French, EnglishC2, GermanB1, Italian, Spanish Studies: Sanskrit, Arabic (classical) | Message 21 of 24 20 August 2014 at 3:35pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think spending a few days in some parts of Florida should constitute a waiver to the conversation part of the DELE. :P
You're right, iguanamon. And even if you live in a city where you can take the exam, there's always time off work to consider, as these tests usually take all day. The only exam I took on a saturday was the CPE, and that's because there were a few thousand people (all schools + independent agents / all levels / half the country) taking exams that day. So, they rented some big high school premises in the city and took the tests there. It was fun, actually. Other institutions (Goethe, Alliance, etc.) prefer to do the exams in-house, and that means spreading them in two or three (working) days. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5011 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 22 of 24 20 August 2014 at 4:26pm | IP Logged | ||
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I wasn't complaining, emk. I just wanted to point out how important it is to get to know the exam details beforehand and to prepare for the exam, not just for the language level :-)
The trouble with TCF is that the certificate is valid for two years only. It makes sense as some people just want to pass their test for their CV and let the language rot. But as I am continuously working on my languages (at least their maintenance), I just find it a little bit overpriced considering I'd have to pay every two years in order to use the reference in my CV. //edit and addition: I just looked at the TCF price and it was an unpleasant surprise. The standard test+both active skills costs significantly more than DALF C2, which is the most expensive of the DELF/DALF. But a good thing is that while TCF has some preparatory material, it is meant to test your skills more than the test taking skills so you aren't expected to pay lots of money for preparatory books or courses in addition to the testing fee itself. I think another difference between the CEFR tested languages and some other ones is in the clear definition of what is expected from you. For exemple Japanese learners have clear lists of kanji, grammar points and vocabulary (even though I heard the vocabulary lists are no longer being updated) to learn for each of the level, including the highest one. On the other hand, JLPT doesn't test any active skills, so the learners are left in the realm of self assessment and no proof, unless they find another exam to take. Which is one more reason why it is not exactly right to say this level of jap/man/ar/whatever exam = this level of the CEFR. Edited by Cavesa on 20 August 2014 at 4:39pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| sctroyenne Diglot Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5393 days ago 739 posts - 1312 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Spanish, Irish | Message 23 of 24 20 August 2014 at 6:15pm | IP Logged | ||
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I like the idea of just being evaluated (rather than having to evaluate my own level
and sign up for the appropriate exam) and being placed on a scale but the TCF only being valid for two years is a deal-breaker. The synthèse and other particularities of the DALF reflect the culture - that's usually how French people are evaluated for concours and whatnot and considering the exam is meant to be proof of academic/professional eligibility in the language, it makes sense that they make the second language learners go through it as well. But the preparation involved does put me off as well. And I have to remind myself how lucky I am to be in close proximity to many Alliances Françaises and a French consulate which has allowed me to thus far avoid all extra expense. To get a student visa for France, for example, you must show up to your "home" consulate general in person (you used to be able to do it by mail). The consulate in San Francisco services Northern CA, Northern NV, Alaska, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Oregon, Utah, Washington, Wyoming and the Pacific Islands under US juridiction, including Guam. So anyone not from the area has to incur the expense of travelling to San Francisco to get a visa (many of them should have eligible DELF/DALF testing centers that are closer, at least). Oh, and if you're in France and need to renew your visa, you can't do it in-country or at the US embassy in Paris, nor can you take a shorter/cheaper trip to New York or Washington DC to renew. You have to go all the way back to your "home" consulate. So yeah, I've been pretty lucky. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5168 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 24 of 24 26 August 2014 at 10:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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Evaluating what I've learned so far is one of my main sources of stress. As much as I keep working regardless of what is happening, it is always saddening not to know whether I'm moving on the right direction or not. That is valid especially for my strongest languages, like French and Norwegian.
I may say I am a pessimist (I believe I'm learning less than I actually am) but I also tend to overrate my skills. As much as this may sound contradictory, it is still related. That is, I tend to judge from my strongest skill, but I also tend to think this strongest skill is worse than it actually is. In the case of French, my reading may be C1, closer to C2, but my listening may be an average B2 and so may be my writing - my speaking may actually be bordering C1, though. So, I say I am C1 but last time I took one of those online tests I realized I got so much from the C1 test wrong, namely some trick grammar aspects. I really look forward to taking a DALF at Alliance Française but I don't know if it's worth involving time and money on a hobby. It would be quite motivating, though, as I study languages so much with not much direct rewarding. As for Norwegian, I may be closer to B2 than I think, but I have too little training on listening without subtitles. I have no clue how to test it, either. I don't really know how to evaluate skills on a language that isn't transparent somehow, I have no idea of when I will know enough vocabulary and how much understanding is good enough. I only needed to learn the 'exceptions', both in terms of grammar and of vocabulary, for French, English and Papiamento, so it is going to be hard to say the precise time I will be able to understand Norwegian overall and not this or that particular text that happened to have a larger number of known words. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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