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Being forced to learn a minority language | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| aabram Pentaglot Senior Member Estonia Joined 5534 days ago 138 posts - 263 votes  Speaks: Estonian*, English, Spanish, Russian, Finnish Studies: Mandarin, French | Message 33 of 42 02 June 2011 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Actually, Russian is foreign language there, not Komi. It's not like they've picked arbitrary minority language and are enforcing it. They may like it or not, but that land and that native culture is Komi, not Russian. I'm somewhat surprised with this nonchalant attitude towards minorities. "Yes, we'll move in to your land thank you very much, yes we'll bring our own culture with us and no, we're not interested in your useless language or anything you possibly might offer." Languages are reduced to mathematics. "We're bigger, so lets just ditch your language and have you all learn ours, it's the rational thing to do."
What do you reckon, given the choice, how many currently mandatory sucbjects would teenagers learn at school willingly? Apart from Facebook 101 or PE for Lazies I don't think there'd be many left. Being native of small useless 1 million speaker languge myself I am of course biased in this matter, but given the cultural context I'm not finding compulsory Komi problem. Giving up with Komi language is surefire way to let it die off completely. And then, in two generations down the line it becomes dying language and everyone is suddenly concerned with saving yet another dying language, some bigwig linguists do TED talk on Komi, BBC News posts an article about it, lamenting about the loss of cultural richness but thats about it then. Supporting waning language and culture is never easy and I doubt that the choice should be left to teenagers who're pissed about some compulsory subject at school. Edited by aabram on 02 June 2011 at 6:16pm 8 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7157 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 34 of 42 02 June 2011 at 6:19pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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To understand the reality of our fellow man goes far beyond forcing outsiders to learn his/her native language. Conversely a lot of people speak English. Does that mean all speakers of English understand the reality (whatever it is) of Americans, Australians, Britons et al?
What's more is that I actually don't disagree with the idea of mandatory instruction for foreign languages (i.e. if you impose such policy, then at least let people pick from two or more options rather than give Hobson's choice). It's just that shunting outsiders into just one foreign language (be it a "world language" or a minority one) will more more likely lead to a less-than-happy outcome than not (again I speak from my observations of what happens in North America and Finland). While we try to teach the kids while we can, the result in mandated foreign language instruction is less than impressive. The level of competency in French among English-Canadians or Swedish among Finns varies from useless to professionally fluent even though in Canada and Finland, French and Swedish are co-official languages respectively. It's basically a questionable use of resources. If learners don't experience any "payoff" from learning something be it calculus, French, accounting or Komi, then they'd better be in it for personal interest otherwise they risk being turned off the subject altogether. Again I seriously don't get how in this discussion there's this much support for mandatory instruction in a minority language for outsiders. I have no problem supporting instruction in Komi (hell it's a Finno-Ugric language so you better believe that I'd rub my hands with glee about a class for Komi!) but I can't agree with forcing it on outsiders and reasons of "courtesy" don't seem clear to me since forcing courtesy on someone is rather oxymoronic and the courtesy becomes distorted or insincere (a bit like saying "mandatory volunteer work"). 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7157 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 35 of 42 02 June 2011 at 7:04pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
It's not about being nonchalant but trying to keep things on an even keel. I'll use Finland as an example again to show what I mean. On one hand, the imposition of Swedish classes on all Finnish children seems to me to be the wrong way to do things. Instead the policy maintains a certain resentment towards Swedish as kyssäkali noted. Despite official use and the policy goal whereby all Finnish high school graduates must show that they know their "mother tongue" (Finnish or Swedish depending on the family) and be professionally competent in the "domestic tongue", I know that this isn't really the case. Some of my friends who are Finnish Finns told me that they're too embarrassed to use their Swedish and when going to Sweden rely on English, while the few Swedish Finns I know admit that they know English better than Finnish. This was shown to me when I emailed a couple of them in Finnish and got responses in English because they admitted that they weren't confident enough to express themselves grammatically correct Finnish. On the other hand, Finland doesn't do such a thing with any of the Saamic languages and I think that this is better (but if anything one could argue more convincingly that Saamic should be mandatory in education rather than Swedish if we want to fall back on language preservation as a factor in language instruction). Instead, the Finnish government supports Saamic schools/"language nests" (what few there are) and there are university streams for getting a degree in Saamic language/culture yet no one wants or is so insistent so as to force all Finnish children living in Sápmi to learn Northern/Inari/Skolt Saami (even though if we use the argument advanced by supporters of mandatory Komi the then there should be demands for the Finnish government to enact such pro-Saamic policy). It's true that a lot of teenagers would rather slack off than study but by and large there's only so far you can go with forcing people to study something (although it's easier to demonstrate to the average student the merits of learning a natural or physical science or history or geography than it is for a language (especially one that is barely-known or one where even native speakers acknowledge that it plays second (or even third) fiddle to others). For the third time: I support mandatory instruction in foreign languages (notice the plural) but not Hobson's choice in it of one foreign language or none at all. Unfortunately I'm getting a stronger sense that supporters of mandatory instruction of minority languages are guided more by a spirit of "righting a wrong" rather than looking at the policy itself and evaluating its effectiveness in maintaining or retaining the second language without the moralistic edge. Edited by Chung on 02 June 2011 at 7:31pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| kerateo Triglot Senior Member Mexico Joined 5647 days ago 112 posts - 180 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English, French Studies: Italian | Message 36 of 42 02 June 2011 at 7:13pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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My two cents..
I think that the point is that it's pointless. I live in Baja Mexico, between highschool and college we have probably about 10 years of mandatory English classes, after those 10 years most people dont speak English, and I'm talking about English; movies, songs, internet, lots of tourists and career oportunities, and they dont learn it. So whats the point in teaching a language that noone is going to learn (komi)?. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| nway Senior Member United States youtube.com/user/Vic Joined 5416 days ago 574 posts - 1707 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, Japanese, Korean | Message 37 of 42 02 June 2011 at 7:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Most kids hate school, and that's just a fact.
Naturally, they'll hate anything they're forced to learn in school. All the way up until I graduated high school, I had thought I hated learning—I hated my history classes; I hated my literature classes; etc. Only after I had a bunch of free time to myself to allocate as I willed did I realize that I didn't hate learning—I just hated being taught in an institutional setting. Within a year after graduation, I had a passion for history and an appreciation for literature, science, and mathematics. Back when I took my Spanish classes, I didn't even consider the notion of learning a language without being forced to—now, I can barely narrow down a list of fourteen languages I'd like to learn. The truth is, compulsory education doesn't teach. We're all aware of the tendency for students to forget most of what they learned after a class or series of classes ends. So, it all depends on how one weights the benefits and costs of minimal retained literacy and resentment for having that minimal retained literacy. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Dragomanno Triglot Groupie Zimbabwe Joined 5004 days ago 80 posts - 98 votes Speaks: Italian*, EnglishC2, GermanB2 Studies: Romanian, Serbo-Croatian, Latin, Lithuanian, Albanian, Ancient Greek | Message 38 of 42 02 June 2011 at 8:15pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Easily: from my studies and my personal experience in the area.
That's quite different: English is thought since is a language used as international mean of communication. Komi and other minority languages are local, endangered languages (read also "cultures"), which are englobed in a wider and stronger linguistic community. We are talking about cultural heritage here... Edited by Dragomanno on 02 June 2011 at 8:16pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| aabram Pentaglot Senior Member Estonia Joined 5534 days ago 138 posts - 263 votes Speaks: Estonian*, English, Spanish, Russian, Finnish Studies: Mandarin, French | Message 39 of 42 02 June 2011 at 9:39pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I think we need to draw a line between random languages being taught versus certain
minority languages being taught. Pakkoruotsi is mostly policital issue, nothing really depends on it apart from political correctness boxes being neatly ticked. Nothing really happens when Finland drops Swedish or Mexico drops English. Some people will get their knickers in a twist but there are no greater cultural changes which would affect speakers of dropped languge as a whole. I'd argue that with Komi or other minority languages in Russia it is much different. I'm not knowledgeable enough about Sami situation, but I'm fairly certain that what works in Nordic countries is not 1:1 applicable elsewhere, particularily in Russia due to cultural and political differences.
As it happens, with smaller languages cultural and political issues are inseparable from the language itself. Language is the carrier of identity, it's not just another means of communication void of emotional baggage. One can consider English or Spanish separate from some sort of cultural background but for some languages it cannot be done. It is not so much about righting historical wrongs but acknowledging the heritage. It is much different from having random foreigner moving into random 50 million population country and being forced to learn the language much to his chagrin. In 1926 in Komi Republic there where 92% of Komi people, but after 1950 Russian mass immigration in 1959 there were 30% of Komi people and in 1989 just 23%. In 1979 just 1,2% of Russians spoke Komi whereas 80% of Komis spoke Russian. This all happened within few generations and memories are still fresh. Komi language obtained official status as state language just in 1995 so this all is very new and revitalization process is just beginning. It is impossible to reduce this particular issue down to simple foreign language teaching issue. This has nothing to do with effective learning methods or successfully maintaining your L2. This is different matter altogether. Having said that I agree that compulsory teaching is not exactly the best way to promote another language. Edited by aabram on 02 June 2011 at 9:40pm 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7157 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 40 of 42 02 June 2011 at 11:10pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
That's pretty much the core of what I've been saying all along. The negative effects of this type of policy are magnified when at least one of the compulsory languages is perceived pejoratively ('it's used by people living in the forests' - i.e. "uncivilized" compared to what we city-dwellers use) or when native speakers themselves consider another language as much more prestigious/useful regardless of their feelings towards the native speakers of that other language. If the native-speakers have some reservations about the place or usefulness of their language in a wider sense, it'll be a lot harder to convince outsiders to learn it, unless the outsiders are genuinely fascinated with the language and associated culture. Then it won't matter what the natives think :-P Even though the current Finnish treatment of Saamic may not be applicable in Russia (has the Russian government tried to follow it?) it's certainly much more aligned with my sensibilities than a simplistic imposition of language instruction just because of geographical accidents. For argument's sake, would the majority of Estonians support the expenditure for mandatory instruction of Võro in public schools? 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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