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GR: Obj. before sub. in Sub cl | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| Kyle Corrie Senior Member United States Joined 4830 days ago 175 posts - 464 votes  | Message 1 of 7 29 August 2012 at 11:09pm | IP Logged | ||
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For anyone out there with German abilities (or research skills) - I'm looking for a
specific grammar rule. It irritates me when I can't explain why precisely something is done so I thought maybe someone else knows where I can find the rule. In certain instances in German, in subordinate clauses, the object precedes the subject and this defies the typical "the subject is placed directly after the subordinate conjunction" structure. For example: "Ich wusste nicht, dass dir das wehtut." or "Ich wette, dass das niemand hat kommen sehen." I'd imagine most would indicate an emphasis of some sort, but I'm really looking for a reason why the object precedes the subject. This way I can have an explanation for why: "Ich wusste nicht, dass dir das wehtut." is an acceptable construction, but "Ich wusste nicht, dass das du nicht wusstest." is not. Any input would be much appreciated. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4845 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 2 of 7 29 August 2012 at 11:52pm | IP Logged | ||
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I've checked this in my Duden grammar and the answer is really complicated. I'll do my best.
The word order in these cases depends on whether or not the subject and the objects are pronouns. If the dative object is a personal pronoun and the subject is a noun or a demonstrative pronoun, the dative object normally precedes the subject: "Ich wusste nicht, dass dir (pers. pronoun) das (demonstr. pronoun) wehtut." "Du hast gesagt, dass dir Thomas ein Buch geschenkt hat." It can also come after the subject: "Du hast gesagt, dass Thomas dir ein Buch geschenkt hat." In the same way, the accusative pronoun can precede the subject, but it doesn't have to: "Sie sagte, dass es Thomas ihm geschenkt habe" or "Sie sagte, dass Thomas es ihm geschenkt habe". "Ich wette, dass das niemand hat kommen sehen" or "Ich wette, dass niemand das hat kommen sehen". This word order is especially common with reflexive pronouns: "Hast du gesehen, dass sich Gisela die Haare hat schneiden lassen?" or "Hast du gesehen, dass Gisela sich die Haare hat schneiden lassen?". I recommend getting a good grammar of German, as this is really a complex matter. My Duden grammar has six pages about this topic, so I guess word order is one of the most complicated aspects of German for a language learner. Edited by Josquin on 30 August 2012 at 2:10pm 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Kyle Corrie Senior Member United States Joined 4830 days ago 175 posts - 464 votes | Message 3 of 7 30 August 2012 at 1:11am | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks for the reply. But considering you found it in your book... Is there a certain
title or some kind of name for this specific structure? What's the heading for the section? It's hard for me to find more information because I don't even know what to call it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4845 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 4 of 7 30 August 2012 at 2:08pm | IP Logged | ||
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My grammar is based on the "Stellungsfeldermodell". The information I cited above is titled "Die Besetzung des Mittelfelds".
EDIT: You can google "Besetzung des Mittelfelds". Here is a useful result I have found: Pronomen vor Nomen. Edited by Josquin on 30 August 2012 at 2:22pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6440 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 5 of 7 30 August 2012 at 5:21pm | IP Logged | ||
I'm glad to see someone uses that. My German friends gave me odd looks for buying a copy, and said Duden was only really known for and used for spelling. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6910 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 6 of 7 30 August 2012 at 6:10pm | IP Logged | ||
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I leafe through my Duden grammar now and then. :) (It cost me 5 SEK/€0.5 five years ago, how about that!)
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4950 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 7 of 7 07 September 2012 at 4:59am | IP Logged | ||
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I wasn't aware of the "das" as a demonstrative pronoun prescriptive word order like nouns, that's good to know. Though sincerely, I would have intuitively used that order anyway ("dass dir dass weh tut")
I was aware that pronouns precede nouns as a prefered order in German, and especially datives. In fact it is not restricted to subordinate clauses, but inversion in general. For example: Heute ist ihm die Frau zweimal begegnet. (not "Heute ist die Frau ihm...") And as Josquin mentioned, this happens with reflexive pronouns but much more optionally. Hoffentlich beruhigt sich Frau Castellanos / Hoffentlich beruhigt Frau Castellanos sich. In General, German speakers tend to prefer the former, because they like pronouns before longer nominal or proper nouns. When you replace Frau Castellanos with a pronoun, then you have to keep it right after the verb, you can't put it after "sich": Hoffentlich beruhigt sie sich. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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