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Portuguese: Há / Faz interchangeability | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4954 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 1 of 12 07 September 2012 at 4:38am | IP Logged | ||
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I've found it a bit difficult to find a perspicuous explanation of these two, when it comes to their use as a past tense particle. I've seen both used in expressions like "Há sete anos / Faz sete anos", but I am not sure if there is a difference or nuance. Just to be clear, "faz" in this case as a particle, not a verb (thus it is not plurarized with "sete anos").
Are they used in different situations? Thanks. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6602 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 2 of 12 07 September 2012 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'd say both faz and há ARE verbs here, with sete anos as an object. It's clearly not the subject, that's why the verbs aren't pluralized...
Can't help you otherwise, also looking forward to a response to this! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| DaraghM Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6156 days ago 1947 posts - 2923 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Russian, Hungarian | Message 3 of 12 07 September 2012 at 5:19pm | IP Logged | ||
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My Portuguese is a little rusty, but the first expression relates to ago.
E.g. Há sete anos - Seven years ago. It's similar to the Spanish, "Hace siete años" and the French "Il y a sept ans". The verb always remains in the third person singular. It's used to express a point in time that an action took place. The second verb, fazer, is related to the French faire from the Latin faccere, and expresses a similar concept with the emphasis on the intervening period*. It's also used in the third person singular. French - Ça fait sept ans - It's been seven years Portuguese - Faz sete anos - It's been seven years* [Update * - This isn't quite correct, and the difference pertains to register as well, as the native speakers have pointed out. ] Edited by DaraghM on 14 September 2012 at 3:03pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Flarioca Heptaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5887 days ago 635 posts - 816 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Esperanto, French, EnglishC2, Spanish, German, Italian Studies: Catalan, Mandarin | Message 4 of 12 07 September 2012 at 5:42pm | IP Logged | ||
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"Há sete anos" and "Faz sete anos" mean the same and in both cases there are no subjects. As Serpent and DaraghM said, in these situations the verb is conjugated in the third person singular.
Indeed, in the Spanish phrase "hace cuatro años que me casé" the verb "hace" is impersonal transitivo and doesn't have a subject either. However, it seems that both Portuguese and Spanish differ from French in this situation. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| stelingo Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5837 days ago 722 posts - 1076 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Czech, Polish, Greek, Mandarin | Message 5 of 12 07 September 2012 at 9:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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According to 'Modern Brazilian Portuguese Grammar' (John Whitlam, Routledge) using the verb fazer in this context is a less formal alternative to haver. They are definitely verbs as they can also be used in the imperfect to denote a continuous action that started in a more distant point in the past until a more recent point in the past.
Moramos no Rio há cinco anos/ Há cinco anos que moramos no Rio. We've been living in Rio for 5 years. Naquela altura havia 5 anos que morávamos no Rio. At that point we'd been living in Rio for 5 years. Faz anos que eu não vejo a Patrícia I've not seen Patricia for years Fazia 6 meses que eles não se falavam. They hadn't spoken to each other for 6 months. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4954 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 6 of 12 08 September 2012 at 12:03am | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks for the responses, but I'm still a bit unclear since the replies express the slight confusion I was facing, some sources say there is a nuance in meaning, others that both mean the exact same thing.
Flarioca, as a native, stated they are the same. I would like to ask Flarioca if he agrees with the nuance between "há/faz", that both DaraghM and Stelingo alluded to, because that was precisely my doubt. Basically that: há - "ago" faz - "it has been" Another question that pops up now is: if that nuance exists, is it in the translation to English or do portuguese speakers recognize it? Thanx. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Flarioca Heptaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5887 days ago 635 posts - 816 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Esperanto, French, EnglishC2, Spanish, German, Italian Studies: Catalan, Mandarin | Message 7 of 12 08 September 2012 at 12:35am | IP Logged | ||
I really wouldn't say that "faz dez anos" is less formal than "há dez anos". Both are discussed in good grammar books and unless otherwise proved, you won't perceive any difference among people who use either form. Indeed, the informal/incorrect way would be "tem dez anos". Now, the way you'll translate them to English depends much more on the complement. Faz/Há dez anos me casei = I married ten years ago. Faz/Há dez anos sou casado = I've been married for ten years. In the first case you may still be married, but this is not clear. In the second, you are saying that you are still married. Of course, maybe my English versions don't carry these meanings, but this is the way I would read them. Now, I sugest a Google experiment (I've done it already, of course). Try "há dez anos que trabalho", "faz dez anos que trabalho" and "tem dez anos que trabalho". The last one will show up very few times, and the two first with about the same number of results. However, you'll listen to some people saying "tem dez anos que trabalho". This is not a proof, but I would add that in good Portuguese grammar books (mine have been written in Brazil, it must be said) "faz" and "há" are treated as equal and totally interchangeable in this context. Edited by Flarioca on 08 September 2012 at 12:37am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6602 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 8 of 12 08 September 2012 at 1:15am | IP Logged | ||
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There are more results if you write 10 as a number:)))
1 person has voted this message useful |
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