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Monty Says Something in Welsh | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4827 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 33 of 76 23 September 2013 at 11:29pm | IP Logged | ||
Lesson 12 eh? You are doing great! da iawn! Hwyl fawr. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| akkadboy Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5407 days ago 264 posts - 497 votes Speaks: French*, English, Yiddish Studies: Latin, Ancient Egyptian, Welsh | Message 34 of 76 25 September 2013 at 8:39am | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks ! I have tried to do a lesson a day and, while feeling great about it, it is clear that the material will need time to sink in. Maybe I'll slow down a bit or better, do more practice with previous lessons. Edited by akkadboy on 25 September 2013 at 8:42am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4827 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 35 of 76 15 October 2013 at 11:46am | IP Logged | ||
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It's about time I updated this log: Despite having been knocked slightly off piste by a
cold, and being "distracted" by German, Danish, and other things, I'm still going with SSiW. As far as Course 1 is concerned, I went back to the beginning, partly in order to revise, but mainly to compile a written list of topics in English, for later reference. I am still attempting to keep to the purist approach of not using the written language as far as the course is concerned. I don't make notes in Welsh, or in English (other than the topic list, as above). I could make use of the official lesson notes, which we are told not to look at before the lessons, and only afterwards as little as possible, but I am choosing not to look at them at all. At least until, say, the end of Course 2, by which time I hope it will be less of an issue anyway. The longer I go on with this, the more I see the correctness in the idea that we can be overly influenced by the written language into assuming that what we think is the way it is pronounced is the correct way of pronouncing it. Plus not having a written source really means you have to concentrate on what you hear. Anyway, I found I was making slow progress with compiling the topic list for Course 1, and was afraid of going backwards (as it were), so my current strategy is to: 1. Keep up with the revision of Course 1, writing down the topics in English as I go. I'm aiming to do at least one each day, and have completed up to lesson 15 as of last night. 2. Do Course 2 in parallel, somewhat more slowly. I'm part-way through lesson 2, and it's enough to tell me I really do need to take these slowly, as it's quite dense, the sentences are more tricky, and I'm needing to use the pause button again, something I'd managed to do away with in Course 1, well before the end. In addition, I've now had one successful G+ hangout with two other SSiW-ers. I didn't say much in Welsh, but I listened, and learned a few words. It reminded me how crucial vocabulary is. Now, bearing in mind my so-called purist approach, i.e. not depending on the written version of the lessons, the next thing will sound curious: I think books can be a great source of vocabulary, and I also think parallel texts can be an extremely useful approach where they are available. So I scoured the internet for parallel text books in Welsh. I found some at Grant and Cutler at Foyles, and ordered the ones that seemed to be in stock. My plan is not to worry in the slightest about any apparent differences in grammar and structure to what we're learning on the course (which is colloquial, spoken Welsh), and only really essentially use them for "collecting" vocabulary. Some of them looked quite short (and cheap), so even if it turns out they are not ideal, I won't be ploughing through them for ever. I'll attempt to read them out loud, and any new vocabulary that I think is worth "collecting", I'll voice-record one way or another. I could use Audacity on my laptop, but that's perhaps a bit overkill, and I'd quite like to record my voice on the move sometimes anyway. Theoretically, there's my cheap and cheerful MP3 player, but its cheapness makes it less than suitable, I fear. So I'm looking at dedicated voice recorders, which don't need to be that expensive, but should hopefully be more suitable for the job. I'd use it for more than just Welsh, of course. Having said that, Grant and Cutler haven't delivered the books yet, and are not responding to emails, so I haven't seen any of these books yet. EDIT: also, since my last update (I think), I've been to another SSiW Meetup Group, which was quite good, although background noise (especially music) is as problematic as I feared it would be. EDIT2: I also try to listen to a Radio Cymru podcast or live broadcast (via internet) most days. I don't use it as background or "aural wallpaper" as some people describe it, as I find that doesn't work for me - it just gets annoying after a while. Perhaps it's an age thing: I'm less patient as I grow older. Instead, I listen for shorter periods in a more concentrated fashion, and listen out for words that I know. Some people have reported being able to get it in parts of England (96.8 KHz), but I've tried on the car radio, and the station search just skips to another channel. Years ago, with another car, I did manage it, but that may have had a more powerful aerial, or the transmission may be less powerful nowadays. Edited by montmorency on 15 October 2013 at 11:54am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4827 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 36 of 76 15 October 2013 at 1:58pm | IP Logged | ||
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Well, I finished C2L2, and C1L16 (Revision and topic-listing). "Only" 10 lessons to go
in C1 plus 10 vocab sessions. But if it seems like a lot of work, I just think about the amount of work that went into producing it. It still staggers me when I think about it. All credit to Aran and Catrin of SSiW, and Iestyn and Cat on the Southern version. As I've mentioned, I try to shadow whenever possible, especially in the sections where we are supposed to be listening only (i.e. we are not expected to "produce" Welsh from English prompts), and while doing this, I got to thinking about how important rhythm is in language. It's an obvious point, I suppose, but I really became conscious of this again today, while listening to the sometimes slightly different rhythms of Aran as compared with Catrin. They also use slightly different pronunciations sometimes, and I think this is deliberate (or conscious) to get us used to slightly different pronunciations, as that's what we'll find in the real Welsh-speaking world. I sometimes find I am beating out the rhythm of the sentence with my hand or arm as well. It seems to help! :-) I'll need to repeat C2L2 at least once, but I'll plough straight on with C2L17 tomorrow. By revising at least 2 C1 lessons for every C2 lesson I do, I hope to "catch up with myself" :- at some point, i.e. I'll finish C1 revision (and topic list making), while still somewhere in the middle of C2. At that point, I'll need to make sure I'm doing the "daily practices" for C1 which SSiW provides. they are less important at the moment while i'm still actively revising C1, but they will be essential after that, to make sure C1 material is kept fresh. Edited by montmorency on 15 October 2013 at 11:43pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4827 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 37 of 76 16 October 2013 at 9:36pm | IP Logged | ||
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My 4 Welsh parallel texts have now arrived from Grant and Cutler. If I had known how
long they would take, I suppose I might have just gone to London to buy them, but then it would have cost nearly the value of half the books to get there, and you always end up spending additional money in London whatever you do. As the old joke has it: ""Mun, a had na' been the-erre abune Twa Hoours when- Bang went Saxpence!!!" (*) I sent for them on something of an impulse, and anyone following my SSiW "career" might be forgiven for asking: "Why's he now going to read books when he's always going on about doing an audio-only course, and not reading?" and they would be justified in so asking. Well, I figured that reading parallel texts was my best way of picking up a bit of new vocabulary (in addition to what I'm gradually learning with SSiW). I don't want to have my head stuck in dictionaries, or depend too much on google translate. So I thought I'd give it a whirl. Since there weren't that many Welsh parallel text books at G&C I thought I'd just send for the ones that were in stock and see what they were like. Well, they are the following: 1. A short booklet about the life of Dylan Thomas, who is ever-fascinating. His parents spoke Welsh, but brought him up only to speak English, which was apparently the fashion among the middle classes of the time. His father taught English. (I've read elsewhere that he gave Welsh lessons, but this booklet doesn't mention it). I'm guessing that it's in a fairly formal style of Welsh, and doesn't look much like what I've been learning, other than a few obvious words that jump out. I doubt if I'll make much use of this, other than reading the English, for the time being. 2. Walesland Gwaliadir by Nigel Wells and Caryl Lewis It turns out to be a book of poetry. Either I misread the description, or I must have had a rush of blood to the head to order this, because poetry is the last thing I would have chosen to try to learn a language with. Still, they are short and modern (written about 2004-2006), so maybe I'll eventually get something out of it, but not for a bit. 3. Y Lon Wen / The White Lane, by Kate Roberts, translated by Gillian Clarke I believe this is considered a 20th century classic of Welsh writing and is the story of a girl growing up in the country. I think it is written in a formal, but relatively simple style, using mostly the present tense and 1st person. I would think that eventually I would be able to cope with it, but I'll wait until I've got a lot further with SSiW I think. 4. Si Hei Lwli / Twilight Song by Angharad Tomos translated by Elin ap Hywel In one sense, this is quite promising, as I recognise the style of a lot of the Welsh as being just like what we are taught. There is one big problem: It seems that the publishers have made very little attempt to line up the English and the Welsh. I would not expect line by line correspondence, but paragraph by paragraph would be nice. The only reason for producing parallel text books is to help people who are learning one or other of the languages, so why not help them as much as you can by enabling them to quickly find the meaning of what they are reading, instead of having to hunt all over the page, or in some cases the last or the next page. Very unfortunate. The other problem is the subject matter, which is about the (probably) last journey of an old lady to the grave of a relative, which to be honest, isn't quite the sort of reading matter I would normally choose. However, we'll see. Maybe it is uplifting or something. Maybe I'll just try reading a page a day or so (getting my wife to read it out loud if possible, as she knows how written Welsh should be pronounced, which I only do to some extent - nasal mutations look rather worrying. Can't find any examples quickly, but I've seen some crackers! *
See wee free men (Other interesting stuff there as well) Edited by montmorency on 16 October 2013 at 10:48pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5846 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 38 of 76 18 October 2013 at 9:18am | IP Logged | ||
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Monty, my question is: Do you live in Wales or do you have any kind of Welsh family background / ancestors or is Welsh just like any foreign target language for you?
Fasulye 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4827 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 39 of 76 20 October 2013 at 1:39am | IP Logged | ||
Hi Fasulye, No, I live in Oxfordshire, England, although I was born in Gloucester, which is quite a bit nearer (south) Wales. My only connection is via my wife, who spent 5 of her primary school years in north Wales, before their family moved back to England. However, they had all been inspired to learn Welsh to some extent, and her brother moved there in his own right, as it were, as an adult, and still lives there. Her parents also moved back there in old age, but they have now passed on. We visit the brother and his family from time to time, but it's quite a long journey to that part of Wales, so can't do it all that easily. I'm gently trying to get my wife to take up Welsh again, via this same course, and while she is interested in principle, I think her time is too committed to other things (like Spanish, for one). A lot of the SSiW learners are outside Wales, and quite a few are outside Europe, e.g. in the USA. I think some of those are descended from people who emigrated from Wales in the past. I'm also interested because some form of "Celtic" language was spoken in what is now England, or parts of it, prior to the arrival of the "Anglo-Saxons", so it could be argued that this is a heritage language for English people as well. But you might like to see this thread that I started There are those who controversially suggest that a Germanic "proto-English" had arrived in Britain even before the Roman invasions, and that "Celtic" was never spoken over all of England. One possible source of Germanic could have been the Belgic tribes who came to Britain from Gaul during the 1st Millennium BC, and who may have spoken Germanic languages or a mixture of Germanic and Celtic. But the (non-mainstream) researchers I am referring to think it goes back much further than that. I find this a fascinating line of questioning, but I fear that it will never be possible to find definite answers. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4827 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 40 of 76 10 November 2013 at 2:09am | IP Logged | ||
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I've been quiet here, but not idle. Well, not entirely idle. :-)
As far as SSiW lessons are concerned, I'm still ploughing away as mentioned above. Somewhere near half-way in Course 2, but a lot of revising / revisiting will be needed. I've managed to have several useful G+ hangout sessions with fellow SSiW learners, which are very useful. There are occasional technical problems, but on the whole, it works reasonably well. I've been watching more S4C, especially "Rownd a Rownd", the soap set in Anglesey (Ynys Mon), which I usually watch first with Welsh subtitles, and again with English subtitles. They speak incredibly quickly though! Another good series is "HWB" which is explicitly designed to help learners. And of course, the new drama series "Y Gwyll" / "Hinterland" which is as good as I was hoping. I've sent off for Gareth King's "Pocket Modern Welsh Dictionary" which most people seem to recommend, and also some modern Welsh novels which I found on amazon.co.uk, along with translations into English for two of them. The G+ hangouts demonstrated that one does really need a bit more vocabulary than we learn in the SSiW course (at least as far as I am now), in order to keep conversations going. If one was with 1st-language or proficient Welsh speakers, then of course one could pick up vocabulary from them, but as we are all learners, the amount we can learn from each other is limited, although we do learn something. Hence the dictionary, and also the novels. I think (hope) they are in the written form of colloquial Welsh, and not in formal or literary Welsh. I could "look inside" most of them on amazon, and they did not seem too different to the kind of language we learn on the course. Edited by montmorency on 10 November 2013 at 2:11am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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