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[TAC 2014] Learning Russian - Team Катюша | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| BonneVivante Pro Member Canada Joined 4857 days ago 33 posts - 59 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: French Personal Language Map | Message 9 of 88 24 September 2013 at 7:37pm | IP Logged | |||||
To be fair, the Penguin book says that Russian pronunciation is difficult, and that it's possible for a foreigner learning Russian to be understood by Russian speakers without mastering accurate pronunciation. In my experience, that's true. Being unable to properly pronounce certain sounds will cause Russians to wince at your speech (which, in my opinion, is reason enough to learn correct pronunciation) but they will still know what you're trying to say. For some people, that's enough. I think it's next to impossible to teach pronunciation with a print-only resource like Penguin, anyway: resources with audio are needed for that, and that's precisely why most people pair Penguin with other courses. [Edited by original poster due to missing word] Edited by BonneVivante on 24 September 2013 at 7:41pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5055 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 10 of 88 24 September 2013 at 8:24pm | IP Logged | |||||
So, you can speak with wrong genders, cases, aspects and so on and still be understood. What does Penguin teach them for? Of course, Russians can understand their language, spoken with a foreign accent, but it doesn't mean that it can't cause misunderstandings. If Russian accent causes misunderstandings in other languages, why do you think that a foreign accent doesn't impede comprehension in Russian? What is doing Penguin is not teaching the Russian pronunciation, it's antiteaching. It would be much better, if there were no the first two lessons at all. Of course, only print resources are not enough, but they are badly needed, especially for Russian. And correct explanations are needed in order to correct the harm caused by things like Penguin. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 11 of 88 24 September 2013 at 8:41pm | IP Logged | |||||
Wrong gestures can cause misunderstandings. Using sarcasm can cause misunderstandings. People make mistakes, misunderstandings exist. You avoid them by doing your best and learning from them, not by trying to frantically perfectionize every language you learn. You know as well as I do that there are many, many people who have incomplete commands of a language, including gender mistakes, atrocious pronunciation and so on who manage to function perfectly fine using that language. That is not to say that the Penguin explanations are good - I have no judgement on that, because I didn't use the Penguin course, so I don't know what it says - but I used Assimil and some other sources - and I learned how to pronounce Russian just fine. I make mistakes, but we all do, and it's a perfectly human thing. People aren't robots. Yeah, it is BETTER to say пошел instead of пощел. But those sounds are hard to tell apart! And whenever I've uttered the phrase пошел? in Russian where ш sounded like щ, do you think my Russian friends ever said "DOES NOT COMPUTE ERROR ERROR MUST SAY ПОШЕЛ?" Nah, they know I'm a foreigner, they take it in stride and they move on. Yes, it'll cause some funny misunderstandings a couple times. We all get that, there's nothing to be ashamed of. We learn from them and we move on. By the way. I do think the soft-hard distinction in Russian is pretty important to learn and to get right. But that doesn't mean people will kill you if you say толко instead of только. 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5055 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 12 of 88 24 September 2013 at 9:37pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Just for reference, только is pronounced тока (without ль in most cases in casual
speech). What you say does not deny the fact that textbooks should teach correctly. Not only is Penguin incorrect, but also it sends the learner in a wrong direction! It tries to convince him that you can pronounce Russian words with English sounds and using wrong pronunciation rules and it won't even cause misunderstandings! Я жить Москва is perfectly understandable. Why do you need to learn verbal conjugation if you can speak with infinitives and be understood? Just imagine a textbook which would teach to speak with infinitives, placing conjugation in "non-essential grammar features" and giving just a couple of paradigmas without details. What would you say about the textbook? Edited by Марк on 24 September 2013 at 9:53pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 13 of 88 24 September 2013 at 9:55pm | IP Logged | |||||
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And что is often чё, in colloquial speech there are some acceptable reductions. I know,
there's more things like that. But I am not sure the Penguin course states what you state that explicitly. Could you cite an example of what Penguin does? I didn't use that course (I used explanations that were more useful for Dutch speakers, who don't have the same sound system at all). For example, I was taught that the Russian t is the same as a Dutch t (our t is dental, not alveolar like in English). Edited by tarvos on 24 September 2013 at 9:56pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| BonneVivante Pro Member Canada Joined 4857 days ago 33 posts - 59 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French Personal Language Map | Message 14 of 88 25 September 2013 at 12:32am | IP Logged | |||||
This is obviously a very important topic for you, and I understand your desire to see good teaching materials for Russian (certainly, all existing materials have some flaws, and that can be frustrating) but please understand: I'm not saying pronunciation is unimportant. I still think, however, that the Penguin course can be very useful if you know its limits. Penguin is definitely not the best resource if your primary goal is fluid spoken Russian, but it is a good starting overview of grammar for an English-speaking solo learner. Does it lead some people astray with its comments about pronunciation? Probably. However, I don't think it's necessary to disregard the useful parts of the Penguin book just because it gives some bad advice about spoken Russian in the first couple of chapters. I think most serious learners look for reviews and opinions about a book or program before adopting it, and so hopefully those people go into Penguin knowing its strengths and weaknesses. On the subject of pronunciation, do you have any recommendations or personal favourites for resources to cultivate good Russian pronunciation? I, personally, have worked very hard to make my Russian pronunciation as good as possible so that my father-in-law stops correcting me at family dinners! The hardest sound for me to pronounce properly is the vowel ы And sorry, Cristianoo, for slightly derailing your log! 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5055 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 15 of 88 25 September 2013 at 7:15am | IP Logged | |||||
"If you simply want to be understood, you can ignore the following details. If you read Russian words as they are spelt, you will not cause misunderstandings. But if you are interested in the details of the small differences between the way Moscow Russian is written and the way it is pronounced, study these six points". Among "these six points" there are hard and soft consonants, vowel reduction and voicing-unvoicing. "As they are spelt" means with English sounds, мя like mya in all the positions. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| renaissancemedi Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Greece Joined 4357 days ago 941 posts - 1309 votes Speaks: Greek*, Ancient Greek*, EnglishC2 Studies: French, Russian, Turkish, Modern Hebrew | Message 16 of 88 25 September 2013 at 7:52am | IP Logged | |||||
Hi Cristianoo, that's a wonderful goal and it will help a lot with you not giving up. By 2015 you have plenty of time to be at a very good level, and hopefully by the end of the trip you will have practiced so much in dialogue and pronounciation. Keep up your enthusiasm and fill us in on your progress! 1 person has voted this message useful |
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