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2nd person plural and 2nd polite forms | ||
Tags: Polite/Informal Forms | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| administrator Hexaglot Forum Admin Switzerland FXcuisine.com Joined 7376 days ago 3094 posts - 2987 votes  12 sounds Speaks: French*, EnglishC2, German, Italian, Spanish, Russian Personal Language Map | Message 1 of 32 07 September 2005 at 4:21pm | IP Logged |
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I wonder if many languages use the same verbal forms to address both a group of people ('Vous les Français vous êtes...') and to address politely a specific person ('Monsieur le Président, vous êtes...').
Also, why are these two forms similar. Where does it come from? The languages I know to have this feature are: English (not very obvious) French and all Romance Languages German Russian Is this an Indo-European feature? 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Giordano Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 7174 days ago 213 posts - 218 votes 3 sounds Speaks: English*, Italian*, French Studies: Cantonese, Greek | Message 2 of 32 07 September 2005 at 4:55pm | IP Logged |
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In Italian, you address a group with "voi" and a person with "tu" in an informal context. To politely address a group, you refer to them as "loro" and one person as "lei". You refer to the Pope as "voi".
In Canada (from French influence), people speaking Italian often address people as "Voi" as a form of respect, but this is usually considered incorrect. I don't know how wide-spread that usage is in Italy itself. And in Spanish, you use "usted" and "ustedes" for one person and a group of people, respectively. Edited by Giordano on 13 September 2005 at 6:48pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Sir Nigel Senior Member United States Joined 7104 days ago 1126 posts - 1102 votes 2 sounds | Message 3 of 32 07 September 2005 at 7:38pm | IP Logged |
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I'm pretty sure this is something going back to Indo-European. Especially because some of these languages usually keep the "v" sound for you (plural/formal singular) and the "t" sound for informal (although this might be only from Latin). Even Hindi has distinctions on formal and informal uses, although I don't know if 2nd person plural and polite are related.
1 person has voted this message useful | |
| sapedro Triglot Senior Member Portugal descredito.blogspot. Joined 7118 days ago 216 posts - 219 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, English, French Studies: Croatian, Serbian, Greek | Message 4 of 32 08 September 2005 at 4:09am | IP Logged |
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Not in Portuguese. You use the form of the 3rd person of the singular to the polite singular form.
And as you probably know, nowadays the 2nd person of the plural is of no use. We use the form of the 3rd one to it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7103 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 5 of 32 08 September 2005 at 4:24am | IP Logged |
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Not meaning to state the completely obvious but German, Spanish & Italian all now commonly use 3rd person verb forms for politeness whereas French uses the 2nd person plural - I'm ignoring the historical "voi" and "vos" usage in Italian and Spanish respectively.
English also uses the 3rd person when addressing persons of rank: "Does your majesty wish to...." So did French at any time have an equivalent to the Sie/lei/loro/usted/ustedes usage of a 3rd person form? I've also got very vague memories of a historical polite use in German of the "Er" (the capital letter being deliberate) pronoun + 3rd person verb form. Can anyone comment on that? Andy. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 7103 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 6 of 32 08 September 2005 at 4:48am | IP Logged |
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The wikipedia site has an interesting article on the T-V distinction here
Andy. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| winters Trilingual Heptaglot Senior Member Italy Joined 7044 days ago 199 posts - 218 votes Speaks: Croatian*, Serbian*, Russian*, English, Italian, Latin, Ancient Greek Studies: Greek, French, Hungarian | Message 7 of 32 08 September 2005 at 10:17am | IP Logged |
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Both in croatian and russian you address formally to an individual in 2nd person plural: "vi", while informal form is "ti".
But it's quite an interesting question actually. It probably wanted to emphasise the importance of one person if you consider him/her to be of "value" of more people and address them that way. Actually, that's how I always thought of it, though I may be incorrect (and probably am). But in english - as far as I know, and that's not so much - it's not used any more, unless it's addressing to a person of some special rank, correct? While in croatian, russian etc you address to all adult individuals (with exception of your friends, family etc) in these polite forms, perhaps some languages kept it only for the most formal occasions? 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Giordano Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 7174 days ago 213 posts - 218 votes 3 sounds Speaks: English*, Italian*, French Studies: Cantonese, Greek | Message 8 of 32 13 September 2005 at 6:50pm | IP Logged |
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Before "you" became used in all contexts in English, "thou" was the informal address for a single person and "you" for a group.
Does anyone know how people addressed others with respect in the time of Shakespeare? 1 person has voted this message useful |
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